A detailed town in the DMG: your preference?

[gizmo33]

I've yet to see a DMG labeled "Experienced Gamers Only! This Product is of Little Use to Those New to Gaming or Game Mastering... Please Spend Your Money Elsewhere!"

It's not an either/or situation. Core rules would be of use to both the newbies and experienced DMs.

Seriously, if the plan is to release new PHs, DMGs, and MMs yearly the early releases SHOULD be newbie friendly. I expect the new DMG to be about half crunch and half fluff (DMing advice and such)... especially with the dependence on magical items (and their page count) being greatly reduced.

Is a TOWN really the most newbie friendly of designs? Won't the newbie be forced to make up an adventure? And aren't town adventurers harder to run than dungeon adventures? So how many newbies are really going to run their first adventure in a town and not have it be a disaster anyway? And aren't newbies capable of buying modules?

 

[CanadienneBacon]

I'm gonna end up making my own town anyway, so no, I wouldn't really want the DMG to have pages devoted to a town. I prefer browsing the good old wikipedia, my existing d20 fluff books, my old college history text, that book on castles I bought a couple of years back, or the History channel for my setting's urban influences.

 

[Cadfan]

Are you trying to claim that the term "Dungeon Master' is somehow indicative of actual mastery?

I hope not. I'll lose my license.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

So if everyone wants a sample town then why aren't adventure modules profitable? I would think that it would be cool for WotC to print sample towns, castles, dungeons, ships, inns, NPCs etc. I don't want it in the DMG, and I don't want to be forced to by something that's not rules based in order to get the rules for the game.

Some people (like myself) are willing to have a certain amount of the book give a starting point for people just getting started with the game to use, either directly or as a model, and for experienced DMs to grab if its needed. Unless the 4e DMG is radically different, my guess is there will be plenty of other material in the book that I would rather not be forced to buy because I won't use it, but I won't complain about it because I know that the book was not written to cater only to my needs.

Adventures do not sell as well for several reasons: they may not fit well with a particular campaign, and might not be for the right level characters at the time. For the purposes of cherry picking ideas like the Starter Town in the DMG, they are usually highly detailed in areas that are important to the adventure and the rest isn't even mentioned, so its not overly useful unless you are going to run the adventure itself.

Personally I would love books that give general ideas for towns, ships, inns etc. that I could pull out and use with very little extra prep work. I would rather it not be overly detailed so I can make it fit into my campaign, but enough so I'm not feeling like I have to make it all up myself.

 

[tenkar]

Is a TOWN really the most newbie friendly of designs? Won't the newbie be forced to make up an adventure? And aren't town adventurers harder to run than dungeon adventures? So how many newbies are really going to run their first adventure in a town and not have it be a disaster anyway? And aren't newbies capable of buying modules?[/QUOTE]

Well, now that you asked: 4 to 6 pages for a town and 10 to 12 pages for a sample adventure (with sidebars as to how and why things look as they do, work as they do, etc) would be extremely useful to new DMs. After spending over $100 bucks on the 3 core books they should spend another $20+ on a beginners module? The aim is to open the door to new players, not close it in their faces.

The town and the adventure should be samples as to how things are done so DMs can do their own.

 

[WayneLigon]

I would definately like a nice starting town. I think one of the first module-like things for 4E should be to take that town and give us a nice poster map of it, a sample wilderness, and in general expand on it.

Of course now the question is - Which Town?

 

[Wormwood]

The town and the adventure should be samples as to how things are done so DMs can do their own.

Complete and total agreement. There *definitely* needs to be a starter scenario somewhere in there.

 

[Wormwood]

Of course now the question is - Which Town?

Here's what ENWorld thinks, at least

 

[Cadfan]

s a TOWN really the most newbie friendly of designs? Won't the newbie be forced to make up an adventure? And aren't town adventurers harder to run than dungeon adventures? So how many newbies are really going to run their first adventure in a town and not have it be a disaster anyway? And aren't newbies capable of buying modules?

Towns aren't newbie friendly, which is precisely why newbies shouldn't be given help in running towns?

No newbie needs a town for anything at all up until the point where they run a town adventure?

Examples are good to have. I'd like the DMG to have a lot of examples. I can probably handle a town on my own, but an example castle might be nice. I forget things sometimes when I'm designing a castle, seeing as I'm not actually an architect from the middle ages. Then my players ask about them and I feel like an idiot and have to retcon my castle, which is never cool. An example warship might be nice too. Maybe an example evil army. And of course an example dungeon.

Bring on the examples.

 

[gizmo33]

Some people (like myself) are willing to have a certain amount of the book give a starting point for people just getting started with the game to use, either directly or as a model, and for experienced DMs to grab if its needed.

I would have thought that most experienced DMs would have a huge library of game books and history books and that WotCs contribution to this would not be significant. I remember yawning at the description of Saltmarsh I saw in one of the hardbacks, I'm expecting the same thing here.

As far as getting started with the game, how is a town a better choice than a dungeon? Perhaps they should consider bundling the rules with a module like they did in the old days with Keep on the Borderlands.

I don't mind buying stuff and not using part of it, per se. What I do mind is buying a book and having some other book jammed inside of it. As in my tongue and cheek post above, candy corn, dice, and miniatures might all be welcomed additions to the game, but that doesn't mean they belong in the DMG.

I don't want to wade through a bunch of newbie stuff in order to find the rules for the game. I'm not exactly an expert on the rules, but having owned pretty much all of the prior editions of DnD, I'm ready for a DMG that gives me the impression that it's authors have played the game at least as much as I have. I'm not exciting about seeing another interpretation of Hommlet.

Personally I would love books that give general ideas for towns, ships, inns etc. that I could pull out and use with very little extra prep work.

Me too. Did you ever get the old Dungeon magazine? The module had plenty of lists of ideas and stuff that reminds me of what you are describing here.