D&D 5E A different take on Alignment

[Maxperson]

Look at the bond "My King" that isn't a sentence, it is a noun. Look at the ideal "Defend the Weak" of the flaw "lack of humility" the only way to even make them proper sentences is with an implied "I" to give us a noun, but then look at what they actually say. They then take one word ("evil") and extrapolate multiple sentences to clarify the three word fragments they are using to mean what they actually mean.

Well, no. As usual that is wrong. We are not extrapolating anything. So make it a full sentence like I do, "I will defend the weak." I agree with you that full sentences are better, but they change nothing about what @Helldritch and I are saying.

Once we have that full sentence, it really tells us very little about the PC. Like, at all. "I will defend the weak" doesn't even begin to touch on HOW that PC will defend the weak. That "how" is what is critically important and actually tells us what the PC is like and there are many ways to defend the weak. Some good. Some evil. Some not either one.

 

[Maxperson]

You completely missed the point being made. The poitn being: MBTI is worse than useless as an actual psychological measurement tool, love languages fail to comprehensively capture the relationship dynamics of couples (epsecially non cis-het ones), and pop culture astrology is far removed from any spiritual roots it may have had and is now nothing more than a opportunity for grifters to cash grab.

No. I got the point. My point is that you can in fact use those things as aids to roleplay your character. Their accuracy isn't really relevant to that.

There are a lot of people who find alignment to be a useful tool. There are a lot of people who don't want to use it. The solution is not to screw over one side or the other, but simply write in the books a quick sentence or two stating that alignment is a purely optional rule.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Seriously, maybe y'all should just accept that different people have different opinions and preferences.

I can abide differences in opinion and preferences if they are well-informed. However, it is painfully clear to me that many of the posters in this thread are arguing from a place of ignorance, having no idea how games outside the d20 bubble work. So the arguments being made in favour of D&D's eccentricities and contradictions are utterly vacuous, lacking in substance and grounding. Many of the things alignment is being claimed as oh so critical for actually work just fine in other games that don't happen to use alignment. This utterly asinine Ideals/Bonds/Flaws argument that @Helldritch and @Maxperson keep spouting on and on about would be an utter non-issue in FATE as @Aldarc mentioned. It would not come up in Apocalypse World, Blades in the Dark, Dream Askew, or any of their descendants or cousins either. Older games I am not 100% up to speed on, but I have supreme faith in @pemerton 's knowledge of the field, and they've been both one of the most ardent and well-articulated interluctors in this engagement that has made a case for alignment's relative lack of utility, compared to the other characterization tools used both by D&D and by other games - if used in good faith.

Expand your breadth and depth of the medium, I beg of you.

 

[Oofta]

I can abide differences in opinion and preferences if they are well-informed. However, it is painfully clear to me that many of the posters in this thread are arguing from a place of ignorance, having no idea how games outside the d20 bubble work. So the arguments being made in favour of D&D's eccentricities and contradictions are utterly vacuous, lacking in substance and grounding. Many of the things alignment is being claimed as oh so critical for actually work just fine in other games that don't happen to use alignment. This utterly asinine Ideals/Bonds/Flaws argument that @Helldritch and @Maxperson keep spouting on and on about would be an utter non-issue in FATE as @Aldarc mentioned. It would not come up in Apocalypse World, Blades in the Dark, Dream Askew, or any of their descendants or cousins either. Older games I am not 100% up to speed on, but I have supreme faith in @pemerton 's knowledge of the field, and they've been both one of the most ardent and well-articulated interluctors in this engagement that has made a case for alignment's relative lack of utility, ckmpared to the other characterization tools used both by D&D and by other games - if used in good faith.

Expand your breadth and depth of the medium, I beg of you.

So because I disagree, I'm ignorant of all other possible options? I don't have the capacity for insight into the flaws of D&D? I think 5E has hit a decent balance, alignment is there if you find it useful but otherwise it has minimal mechanical impact. I never strongly enforced alignment, I find it as useful framework to view the world from a different perspective than my own inherent biases.

I agree other games work different. So? I beg of you, don't insult my intelligence just because I disagree or because I don't care to play the other games. I don't need to drive a Hummer to know it isn't the vehicle for me. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that my car wouldn't be very good off road.

 

[Maxperson]

I can abide differences in opinion and preferences if they are well-informed. However, it is painfully clear to me that many of the posters in this thread are arguing from a place of ignorance, having no idea how games outside the d20 bubble work. So the arguments being made in favour of D&D's eccentricities and contradictions are utterly vacuous, lacking in substance and grounding.

You don't need to know about other games to discuss D&D, which is the game we are discussing here. I am well aware having had many other games explained in great detail over the years, how games without alignment work. Those games have no bearing on D&D, whether alignment should or should not exist in D&D, or whether there are lots of players and DMs who find alignment to be a useful tool.

Dismissing people because you assume that they have not played any other games outside of d20, is not only shortsighted, but reflects really poorly on you.

Many of the things alignment is being claimed as oh so critical for actually work just fine in other games that don't happen to use alignment.

Cool beans. We know that. Those other games just have no relevance here. If you want to play D&D like those other games, you can. Nothing is stopping you.

This utterly asinine Ideals/Bonds/Flaws argument that @Helldritch and @Maxperson keep spouting on and on about would be an utter non-issue in FATE as @Aldarc mentioned. It would not come up in Apocalypse World, Blades in the Dark, Dream Askew, or any of their descendants or cousins either.

If you have to attack those who disagree with you, you've lost. Next time you call me names, I will report it.

 

[cmad1977]

I mean...
I’d be embarrassed if I had to stretch my arguments so far in a weird defense of alignments usefulness.
It’s useless now. Ideals, bonds, flaws and personality traits are vastly superior and allow for nuanced characters. Alignment is vestigial.

 

[cmad1977]

Making up hypothetical “identical” personalities that act differently is a really “interesting” take. It’s almost as if people who act differently do NOT share personality traits. Stunning.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean...
I’d be embarrassed if I had to stretch my arguments so far in a weird defense of alignments usefulness.
It’s useless now. Ideals, bonds, flaws and personality traits are vastly superior and allow for nuanced characters. Alignment is vestigial.

This reply amounts to, "Nuh uh!" It isn't in any way a counter argument to the valid arguments put forth in favor of alignment as a tool for those who want to use it.

 

[Oofta]

I mean...
I’d be embarrassed if I had to stretch my arguments so far in a weird defense of alignments usefulness.
It’s useless now. Ideals, bonds, flaws and personality traits are vastly superior and allow for nuanced characters. Alignment is vestigial.

I just posted how ideals, bonds, flaws can take radically different flavor and implementation based on a person's moral compass.

 

[Maxperson]

Making up hypothetical “identical” personalities that act differently is a really “interesting” take. It’s almost as if people who act differently do NOT share personality traits. Stunning.

Thanks for agreeing with us that the ideals and such don't really tell us much about the characters. It's almost as if we need to know more in order to use those for our PCs. You may not need to use it. I may not need to use it. But there are a lot of less creative people who do need to use alignment to help them interpret those ideals, bonds and flaws. Don't screw them, just because you personally don't need or want to use alignment. That's just petty.