A Direct Solution

[Tequila Sunrise]

I've always been a fan of direct damage spells; they're fun, simple and their effects stack with those of other characters. Unfortunately, their effectiveness does peter out at mid to high level because while hp increase exponentially, direct damage only increases linearly. So here's my solution: at level 6, add the caster's casting stat bonus to direct damage spells. At every 5 levels thereafter, add a multiple to the casting stat bonus. So at 11th you add x2 stat bonus, at 16th you add x3 stat bonus, and so on into epic levels.

 

[Nifft]

IMHO, 6th level is the wrong time to fix this. In my experience, direct damage is a fine choice from 5th to 10th level (maybe even 12th).

IMHO, direct damage becomes area damage, and that's the problem: you frequently want to be able to hit a single foe for a LOT of damage rather than an area of foes for a moderate amount of damage. So perhaps either new spells, or the ability to add your casting stat / caster level / whatever to the damage you inflict on one of the foes in your spell's area would be a better fix?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Flamewarrior]

Yep, Nifft has it: direct spell damage doesn't need a fix between 5th and 10th. It does at higher than that, and, ironically, might before the 5th, where it starts strictly worse than a crossbow and just isn't in the same power bracket as the non-damaging incapacitations; then again, it makes perfect sense that it's the latter that should be weakened.

This thread has ideas that I'm considering. Ignore the original post - I can only think the guy was drunken at the time (considering that most of his ideas were good, despite this abysmal error). And I'm not saying I support everything there, too.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

IMHO, 6th level is the wrong time to fix this. In my experience, direct damage is a fine choice from 5th to 10th level (maybe even 12th).

Okay, so maybe start at 11th level instead and every 5 levels after, or maybe every 10 levels after...

IMHO, direct damage becomes area damage, and that's the problem: you frequently want to be able to hit a single foe for a LOT of damage rather than an area of foes for a moderate amount of damage. So perhaps either new spells, or the ability to add your casting stat / caster level / whatever to the damage you inflict on one of the foes in your spell's area would be a better fix?

Cheers, -- N

That could be interesting. It should be noted though that nuking the BBEG without also nuking your buddies isn't a problem in my games, as I consider it perfectly reasonable for a caster to voluntarily shrink his/her spell's area of effect.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Yep, Nifft has it: direct spell damage doesn't need a fix between 5th and 10th. It does at higher than that, and, ironically, might before the 5th, where it starts strictly worse than a crossbow and just isn't in the same power bracket as the non-damaging incapacitations; then again, it makes perfect sense that it's the latter that should be weakened.

This thread has ideas that I'm considering. Ignore the original post - I can only think the guy was drunken at the time (considering that most of his ideas were good, despite this abysmal error). And I'm not saying I support everything there, too.

Yeah, direct damage sucks at the low low levels but so does just about everything in d&d except the guy with the big sword. Secondary effects are nice if you don't mind adding that extra die roll, but I'd like direct damage to be cool as simply a way to dish out decent damage to a bunch of foes at once.

 

[Flamewarrior]

Yeah, direct damage sucks at the low low levels but so does just about everything in d&d except the guy with the big sword.

And color spray. And sleep. Presumably, either followed by coup de graces.

 

[Nifft]

And color spray. And sleep. Presumably, either followed by coup de graces.

IMHO sleep has been made to suck in 3.5e -- the 1 round casting time is too long, since your foes have time to move before you finish casting. :\

But color spray is rocks on toast.

Cheers, -- N

 

[DreamChaser]

Unfortunately, their effectiveness does peter out at mid to high level because while hp increase exponentially, direct damage only increases linearly.

uh...how is 14d8 + 14 (for a d8 HD creature with Con of 13 and 14 HD) an exponential increase compared to 8d8 + 8?

I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

Also, I can't honestly say I've ever seen a convincing argument that spellcasters are underpowered at high (12+) levels.

Let's compare.

A 12th level sorcerer could cast 6 fireballs and 6 scorching rays per day (not including bonus spells). I chose these two because they are both fire, both direct damage, but one is an attack and one is area.

Currently, assuming mr. sorcerer has a Cha of 21 (16 start + 3 level + 2 cloak) = 1 bonus spell of 2nd and 3rd levels and +5 bonus

Fireball = 7 x (10d6 [avg 35]) = 245
Scorch = 7 x (3 x [4d6 {avg 14}] = 42) = 294 (this does not include the chance of critical with each ray)

Your suggestion, assuming mr. sorcerer has a Cha of 21 (16 start + 3 level + 2 cloak) = 1 bonus spell of 2nd and 3rd levels and +5 bonus

Fireball = 7 x (10d6 +5 [avg 40]) = 280 (not much of a change...)
Scorch = 7 x (3 x [4d6+5 {avg 19}] = 57) = 399 (more than 100 points more!)

Of CR 12 creatures in the SRD we have the following HP totals:
85, 91, 114, 147, 200, 290 (mean = 154)

Single handedly killing a CR 12 creature:
-- Fireball (standard) = from up to 880 feet away (154 hp / 35 dam/rnd = 4 rnd (8 on successful saves)
-- Fireball (upgraded = from up to 880 feet away (154 hp / 40 dam/rnd = 4 rnd (8 on successful saves)

Scorching ray (standard) = (154 hp / 42 dam/rnd = 4 rnd (2 on successful critical)
Scorching ray (upgraded) = (154 hp / 57 dam/rnd = 3 rnd (2 on successful critical)

I don't see the disconnect in HP to damage and I think that there are some spells that would benefit disproportionately from adding such a bonus.

Interesting idea though.

DC

 

[Nifft]

IMC, the damage die is upgraded for certain higher-level spells. For example, polar ray deals 1d10/level (not 1d6/level), because c'mon, you're using an 8th level slot to hit a single target with the second most commonly resisted energy type. At close range.

Cone of cold deals d8s of damage. Meteor swarm deals d10s of fire damage; bludgeoning damage is still d6s, though.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Thanks everyone, but I've decided to focus on moderating other high level magic rather than boosting DD spells.

uh...how is 14d8 + 14 (for a d8 HD creature with Con of 13 and 14 HD) an exponential increase compared to 8d8 + 8?

HPs are exponential because it's never just HD that increase; Con increases too, especially with monsters.