A few comments from a playtester

[Bolongo]

But seriously, did you guys read the thread that was linked in the thread that I linked? The one by Psycho_Robot or something. I mean, I can have a bit of edge when I post at times, but his posts are seriously [censored] up. I really hope his parents take away his computer access and give the kids his meds....

Thankfully, someone else in that thread hinted that there is an ignore option on those boards. After reading only 2 threads in that section, I'm already ignoring 3 people...

 

[Fifth Element]

Useful utility spells:
Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic, Dancing Lights, Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation, Alarm, Shield, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, True Strike, Charm Person (npc's in town for information or something), Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Silent Image, Ventriloquism, Animate Rope, Erase, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump.

All those are useful spells in various situations that any class could make use of really.

Except a fighter, who tends to be wearing armour and therefore has to deal with ASF.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

Except a fighter, who tends to be wearing armour and therefore has to deal with ASF.

There are feats and armor qualities to reduce that problem and many of the spells would be used out of combat where the fighter would most likely not be wearing armor.

 

[Fifth Element]

There are feats and armor qualities to reduce that problem and many of the spells would be used out of combat where the fighter would most likely not be wearing armor.

There are also prestige classes. Of course, now we have the character investing not only a class level but also feats and/or expensive armour just so that he can dabble in magic. And the spells on your list that have out-of-combat utility are far too weak to be worth investing a class level into.

I'm not saying it's impossible to make a fighter dabbling in magic in 3E, I'm saying the hoops you have to jump through in exchange for very limited utility are ridiculous.

 

[TomWhitbrook]

We might be a bit past this in the conversation by this point, but I don't see anything wrong with a hero (or a paragon or an... um... epic-er) picking up a power/spell of roughly their current power level. Their are plenty of ways to handle this that will be appropriate to varying campaigns, and it's incumbent upon DM's to address (or, should they prefer, not address) this in a way that's keeping with said campaign.

For instance, maybe Gariok the Hunter has been watching Isgul the Wizard casting spells through many adventures and says to him "I was initially skeptical of your ways, Isgul, but I'm starting to see the value. Do you suppose that you could teach me how to cast one of your spells..."

Isgul responds, "Well, um, if you're really interested Gariok, perhaps we could start with something simple like a cantrip. Ghost sounds, maybe?"

Gariok shakes his head. "Actually, I've been watching you cast that 'fireball' thing of yours, and that seems a bit more useful."

"But Gariok," Isgul protests, "It took me years to learn that incantation, and I required many years of study and hard work and practice of simpler incantations before I was ready for it."

Gariok smiles. "You have to remember that I'm not some village waif, Isgul. I've travelled the lands with you for some time, I've fought necromancers and vile demons, held open the rift at Shar Thorr and performed the ritual of the Endless Storm with you..." Adding, "And I've been watching you cast your fireball for a few weeks now, and I've been practicing in a mirror."

I don't think that one character picking a limited number of powers from another class has to be AT ALL unbalancing OR unrealistic. If you want it to work, you can make it work.

I've been lurking for a very long while, but I have to chime in and say I love that.

 

[Ahglock]

Having a character multiclass into wizard at level 10 and gain only abilities that are appropriate for a first level wizard fighting 1st level enemies was, while realistic, really lame.

Now that character gets abilities that are appropriate for a 10th level wizard.

This is less realistic. It also doesn't suck.

Considering first level abilites are now supposed to be useful across the levels, this seems to being giving realistic up so you can have less fun.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

There are also prestige classes. Of course, now we have the character investing not only a class level but also feats and/or expensive armour just so that he can dabble in magic. And the spells on your list that have out-of-combat utility are far too weak to be worth investing a class level into.

Silent Image - Create the illusion of a bridge across a deep or treacherous ravine. Unless the "victim" of your illusion knows for a fact there shouldn't be a bridge there, you'll have a great chance of luring someone or something to their death when they fall through the illusionary bridge. There's a huge number of ways to use silent image and ghost sound to your advantage.

I don't feel like going through all those spells, but I bet a number of them aren't subjected to the ASF chance anyway, since some won't have somatic spell components.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

For instance, maybe Gariok the Hunter has been watching Isgul the Wizard casting spells through many adventures and says to him "I was initially skeptical of your ways, Isgul, but I'm starting to see the value. Do you suppose that you could teach me how to cast one of your spells..."

Isgul responds, "Well, um, if you're really interested Gariok, perhaps we could start with something simple like a cantrip. Ghost sounds, maybe?"

Gariok shakes his head. "Actually, I've been watching you cast that 'fireball' thing of yours, and that seems a bit more useful."

"But Gariok," Isgul protests, "It took me years to learn that incantation, and I required many years of study and hard work and practice of simpler incantations before I was ready for it."

Gariok smiles. "You have to remember that I'm not some village waif, Isgul. I've travelled the lands with you for some time, I've fought necromancers and vile demons, held open the rift at Shar Thorr and performed the ritual of the Endless Storm with you..." Adding, "And I've been watching you cast your fireball for a few weeks now, and I've been practicing in a mirror."

While this is funny, it's not how it goes down in 4e.

First you take Arcane Initiate, then Novice Power and then Acolyte power. Now you can cast fireballs (Enounter powers).

So Gariok would have to learn a few lesser spells before casting fireball.

The absolute fastest you can pull this off seems to be over 2 levels (A new feat+retraining on one level and a new feat or retraining on the next) though I expect there are some restrictions with retraining in regard to prerequisite (Such as you can't use a retrained feat to qualify as a prerequisite for a new feat you gained on the same level) which would mean you could do this over 3 levels.

Of course, this is assuming are level 8 by the time you take aolyte power.

 

[Rechan]

While this is funny, it's not how it goes down in 4e.

First you take Arcane Initiate, then Novice Power and then Acolyte power. Now you can cast fireballs (Enounter powers).

I didn't see prerequists in the Novice Power/Acolyte Power/Adept power.

All it said was "Any multi-classing feat".

 

[Rechan]

Silent Image - Create the illusion of a bridge across a deep or treacherous ravine. Unless the "victim" of your illusion knows for a fact there shouldn't be a bridge there, you'll have a great chance of luring someone or something to their death when they fall through the illusionary bridge. There's a huge number of ways to use silent image and ghost sound to your advantage.

You are of course neglecting the saving throw. I'd say anyone who's attempting to walk across the bridge deserves one. And a Fighter9/Wiz1 is a 10trh level character; anyone of appropriate level he's trying to trick over the bridge is going to bust that saving throw to pieces.