A Flaw with saving throws or is there

[MerricB]

I use a variant rule (that was in the 3E DMG, but I don't remember if it's in 3.5E or not) which means that a natural 1 is treated as a -10 and a natural 20 counts as a 30.

This means that for a character with excellent bonuses (or terrible bonuses, as the case may be) the task is, in fact, automatic (or impossible).

Cheers!

 

[Ruvion]

I use a variant rule (that was in the 3E DMG, but I don't remember if it's in 3.5E or not) which means that a natural 1 is treated as a -10 and a natural 20 counts as a 30.

This means that for a character with excellent bonuses (or terrible bonuses, as the case may be) the task is, in fact, automatic (or impossible).

Cheers!

I go that route as well...

...and no matter how lucky that halfling is with his poisoned dagger against the red wyrm, his luck is next to nothing when compared to a tiny quickling puncturing another great wyrm with his tiny magical envenomed dagger (again with Fort DC 13). I mean c'mon...can the minuscule dagger even penetrate the dragon scales?

 

[dcollins]

Can result. Doesn't say it's an exclusive list.

By my reading it is an exclusive list.

 

[Hypersmurf]

By my reading it is an exclusive list.

So let's talk about Color Spray.

While Paralyzed, you can take purely mental actions. Can you take purely mental actions while unconscious due to Color Spray?

Elves are immune to magical Sleep effects. Are elves affected by the unconsciousness effect of Color Spray?

Same question for Scintillating Pattern...

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Can I use Color Spray on a construct?

 

[dcollins]

So let's talk about Color Spray.

More to the point, I would not allow dragons to be knocked out by color spray. If you're immune to paralysis and sleep, that reads like it must cover unconsciousness.

 

[Hypersmurf]

More to the point, I would not allow dragons to be knocked out by color spray. If you're immune to paralysis and sleep, that reads like it must cover unconsciousness.

So is it a paralysis effect or a sleep effect?

Those are the two things dragons are immune to, so if they're immune to Color Spray, it must be one or the other...

If someone's immune to sleep but not paralysis (like an elf), are they affected?

If someone's immune to paralysis, but not sleep, are they affected?

Can I use Color Spray on a construct?

That's a weird question, and I was thinking the same thing last night.

It specifically notes what happens if you use Color Spray on a non-living creature - stunned instead of unconscious.

But are there any non-living creatures susceptible to mind-affecting spells?

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

So is it a paralysis effect or a sleep effect?

Those are the two things dragons are immune to, so if they're immune to Color Spray, it must be one or the other...

Not willing to concede that. The designers have given the clear indication that dragons should not be affected by things that make them instantly helpless. I would qualify unconsciousness as like "paralysis and sleep effects".

Similarly, I would not allow some item or ability in a D&D supplement to do an end-run around this prevention by calling something a "knock-out" gas or an "incapacitation" ray.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not willing to concede that. The designers have given the clear indication that dragons should not be affected by things that make them instantly helpless.

I would say the designers have given the clear indication that dragons should not be affected by things that cause sleep or paralysis...

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

I would say the designers have given the clear indication that dragons should not be affected by things that cause sleep or paralysis...

Right. And therefore I wouldn't let any ability that had the exact same in-game effect as sleep or paralysis, but had happened to be assigned a different name, affect dragons any differently.