OSR A Historical Look at the OSR

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Regarding your post about OSR applied to other games--I can see an argument for not using it to apply to games still in publication (which pushes my example of Cepheus Engine out), but how about retroclones of Gamma World or Marvel Superheroes, both of which exist, and both of were out of print at least as long as most of those early editions of D&D? And which arguably also have distinct playstyle differences?
That's definitely an interesting question. In my observation those games were a side-interest of some participants in the OSR going back to the beginning of the movement, and they're a good edge/corner case demonstration of why the OSR should probably be more capacious than just Old School D&D. Though a lot of this is personal opinion, of course.

Honestly, that's what I mostly feel is true, but that doesn't mean having some structure to what a campaign is about is somehow outside the bounds. Yes, early games tended to be more sandboxy, but its not a binary thing here.

The problem is it also tends to get bundled up with support for structural things that didn't really have anything to do with that playstyle per se. As an example, the really soggy attitude you get on some OSR proponents about anything but random character generation. That's got nothing to do with whether your doing sandbox style play or the early quasi-caper play.

Now, not everyone in the OSR feels that way; Kevin Crawford is willing to accept to arrays for example. But there's a lot of odd attachments that don't seem to have anything related to any particular style so much as just general resistance to anything that came after the period they call back to.
Yes, though I think some of those mechanics are at least tangentially part of the same exploration. Random character generation still has some adherents, but has become increasingly outmoded in D&D design. Re-examining how, for example, OD&D and B/X treat ability scores, can give us more insight into when and why random abilities can work and be fun, even if that's something I completely abandoned while I was playing 4E, and mostly so with 5E.
 

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One of the points of contention within the OSR, and referenced in the blog post series, is whether rules lite games that are not retroclones "count" as OSR. There are some good questions to be asked here: things like xp-for-gold, exploration procedures, morale and reaction rolls, and classic saving throws might be things that end up on the cutting room floor if you are trying to fit all of your rules onto two pages. At that point you are sort of relying on players having a wider knowledge of old school mechanics so they can import things easily (which, probably a fair assumption given how niche these games are in the grand scheme of things).

But given all subcultures are fractal, there is a tone of resentment with regards to all these "NuSR" games and products coming in and becoming "popular." I see this in particular with some of the reaction against things like "artpunk" aesthetics (Mork Borg, etc). I get that it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea, but to me if you like a certain style of game, argue for it on its own merits rather than as simply being not-something else. (I feel this same way about OSR or Indie folks who relentlessly drag 5e, with anti-5e becoming their whole gaming identity). I'm just happy that so many people are creating so many different things.
 

rogueattorney

Adventurer
I was deeply involved in the initial retro-clone phase of the OSR. I was the moderator for the Classic D&D forum at Dragonsfoot and was in contact with pretty much all the main principals. I actually advised the makers of OSRIC to take a different approach other than the retro-clone. (They were smart to ignore me.) Later I helped draft some of the correspondence between the makers of OSRIC and WotC.

Putting myself back in the headspace of an O(A)D&D player circa 2004 and it was a deeply weird time for us in the hobby. Maybe those that have come to D&D since then don't know, or maybe those who were perfectly happy with 3.x at the time didn't realize, but it was actually quite hard to get support for the game then. WotC's pdf program was sporadic, low quality, and was eventually pulled entirely prior to 4e coming out. You couldn't even get consistent access to some of the rule books. The B/X books that are now the basis of much of the nu-OSR weren't ever legally available until 2013. Dragonsfoot and a few other sites put out free adventures, but the copyright propriety of doing so at the time was nebulous at best. There was also a sense that we could get some more and better quality stuff if people were able to sell their products.

There were a ton of products in that era that I called "fishing for grognards." Game products that seemed to be trying to sell to the old school D&D player without actually being the kind of D&D we used to play... Necromancer's "first edition feel," Goodman's Dungeon Crawl Classics, various Gygax products from Mongoose and Troll Lords, Zeitgeist's Blackmoor stuff, Kenzer's Hackmaster. So there was this notion among us that "the professionals" obviously thought there was a market there, but among my circle we were all dissatisfied with the product because it wasn't what we really wanted - i.e. support for the games that we had going right now.

The first time I saw reference to using the OGL to reproduce the 1e rules was on Rob Kuntz's Pied Piper Press forums (long gone, alas), and it was in regard to finding a vehicle for Gary and Rob to publish some of their old Greyhawk stuff. That would have been about 2002, 2003. That discussion went by the wayside when Gary formed a deal with Troll Lords to publish his stuff with Castles & Crusades. But after C&C again disappointed many of us (pretty much all the guys behind OSRIC were play testers for Castles & Crusades) and the Gygax materials from TLG only came out at a snails pace, the impetus for something else came about.

So, the initial push was not to put out some sort of D&D-ish product that met up with certain ideas about how D&D should be played. Nor was it a celebration of general nostalgia for 70s and early 80s rpging. It was quite purposefully an attempt to publish support for specific out of print editions of D&D that were not generally available at the time in a manner in which they wouldn't get sued. No one was trying to exclude other "old school" games from the club. It's just that there wasn't any impetus to make a clone for, say, Tunnels & Trolls or Call of Cthulhu because those games still existed in pretty much the same form as they had always existed and were readily available from their publishers. The whole point was that wasn't the case for old school D&D. Trust me, all the guys involved in that initial retro-clone push loved Runequest, Traveler, Tunnels & Trolls, Call of Cthulhu, WHFRPG, and so on.

Also, I don't think it can be understated how much the "not get sued" part was up in the air prior to OSRIC getting published. It's taken for granted nowadays that if you want to publish an adventure that is roughly compatible with out of print editions of D&D that you can just do it through the OGL. That was not a sure thing at the time. And when OSRIC and the first couple of OSRIC products hit the market, there were some really PISSED people. A lot of folks who were really invested in that whole "fishing for grognards" spectrum of products I described above did not appreciate OSRIC coming along. And WotC did contact the publishers of OSRIC. I don't think I can say much beyond that and point out that 15+ years later, OSRIC is still out and nobody's been sued.

There were a lot of guys who did proof-reading and various other support for OSRIC, but really Matt Finch and Stuart Marshall are OSRIC's daddies. Almost simultaneously, Chris Gonnerman did BFRPG, basically by himself, which is just incredible. Then came Dan Proctor's Labyrinth Lord and Matt's Swords & Wizardry, and by 2008 basically all the pre-2e versions of D&D had a clone ruleset and some support.

To say they succeeded beyond our wildest dreams is an understatement. Guy Fullerton kept a list called Hoard and Horde which it doesn't look like he's updated in about a year, but gives you an idea of the sheer deluge of support we were finally getting for our games. Literally thousands of products. A lot of it was shovel-ware, but I wouldn't say that was at a greater rate than a lot of the shovel-ware TSR tried to sell us back in the day. But a lot of it was first rate... Gabor Lux's Echoes of Fomalhaut fanzine, the whole Advanced Adventures line from XRP, Anomalous Subsurface Environments, etc., etc., etc. Beyond that, WotC reprinted OD&D and the 1e hardbacks as well a several other hardbacks and adventure compilations, and started taking their stewardship of their older IP seriously with the pdf program with DriveThru, including several print on demand options.

From our perspective, we won. We got what we wanted. Not much else to do other than game. So, it probably shouldn't come as a surprise that the OSR mantle has been taken up by those who are neither satisfied with WotC's version of D&D and who want something different/more than the same old, same old pre-WotC editions. I kind of wish they'd come up with some other term for themselves than "OSR." but it is what it is.
 
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I was deeply involved in the initial retro-clone phase of the OSR. I was the moderator for the Classic D&D forum at Dragonsfoot and was in contact with pretty much all the main principals. I actually advised the makers of OSRIC to take a different approach other than the retro-clone. (They were smart to ignore me.) Later I helped draft some of the correspondence between the makers of OSRIC and WotC.

Putting myself back in the headspace of an O(A)D&D player circa 2004 and it was a deeply weird time for us in the hobby. Maybe those that have come to D&D since then don't know, or maybe those who were perfectly happy with 3.x at the time didn't realize, but it was actually quite hard to get support for the game then. WotC's pdf program was sporadic, low quality, and was eventually pulled entirely prior to 4e coming out. You couldn't even get consistent access to some of the rule books. The B/X books that are now the basis of much of the nu-OSR weren't ever legally available until 2013. Dragonsfoot and a few other sites put out free adventures, but the copyright propriety of doing so at the time was nebulous at best. There was also a sense that we could get some more and better quality stuff if people were able to sell their products.

There were a ton of products in that era that I called "fishing for grognards." Game products that seemed to be trying to sell to the old school D&D player without actually being the kind of D&D we used to play... Necromancer's "first edition feel," Goodman's Dungeon Crawl Classics, various Gygax products from Mongoose and Troll Lords, Zeitgeist's Blackmoor stuff, Kenzer's Hackmaster. So there was this notion among us that "the professionals" obviously thought there was a market there, but among my circle we were all dissatisfied with the product because it wasn't what we really wanted - i.e. support for the games that we had going right now.

The first time I saw reference to using the OGL to reproduce the 1e rules was on Rob Kuntz's Pied Piper Press forums (long gone, alas), and it was in regard to finding a vehicle for Gary and Rob to publish some of their old Greyhawk stuff. That would have been about 2002, 2003. That discussion went by the wayside when Gary formed a deal with Troll Lords to publish his stuff with Castles & Crusades. But after C&C again disappointed many of us (pretty much all the guys behind OSRIC were play testers for Castles & Crusades) and the Gygax materials from TLG only came out at a snails pace, the impetus for something else came about.

So, the initial push was not to put out some sort of D&D-ish product that met up with certain ideas about how D&D should be played. Nor was it a celebration of general nostalgia for 70s and early 80s rpging. It was quite purposefully an attempt to publish support for specific out of print editions of D&D that were not generally available at the time in a manner in which they wouldn't get sued. No one was trying to exclude other "old school" games from the club. It's just that there wasn't any impetus to make a clone for, say, Tunnels & Trolls or Call of Cthulhu because those games still existed in pretty much the same form as they had always existed and were readily available from their publishers. The whole point was that wasn't the case for old school D&D. Trust me, all the guys involved in that initial retro-clone push loved Runequest, Traveler, Tunnels & Trolls, Call of Cthulhu, WHFRPG, and so on.

Also, I don't think it can be understated how much the "not get sued" part was up in the air prior to OSRIC getting published. It's taken for granted nowadays that if you want to publish an adventure that is roughly compatible with out of print editions of D&D that you can just do it through the OGL. That was not a sure thing at the time. And when OSRIC and the first couple of OSRIC products hit the market, there were some really PISSED people. A lot of folks who were really invested in that whole "fishing for grognards" spectrum of products I described above did not appreciate OSRIC coming along. And WotC did contact the publishers of OSRIC. I don't think I can say much beyond that and point out that 15+ years later, OSRIC is still out and nobody's been sued.

There were a lot of guys who did proof-reading and various other support for OSRIC, but really Matt Finch and Stuart Marshall are OSRIC's daddies. Almost simultaneously, Chris Gonnerman did BFRPG, basically by himself, which is just incredible. Then came Dan Proctor's Labyrinth Lord and Matt's Swords & Wizardry, and by 2008 basically all the pre-2e versions of D&D had a clone ruleset and some support.

To say they succeeded beyond our wildest dreams is an understatement. Guy Fullerton kept a list called Hoard and Horde which it doesn't look like he's updated in about a year, but gives you an idea of the sheer deluge of support we were finally getting for our games. Literally thousands of products. A lot of it was shovel-ware, but I wouldn't say that was at a greater rate than a lot of the shovel-ware TSR tried to sell us back in the day. But a lot of it was first rate... Gabor Lux's Echoes of Fomalhaut fanzine, the whole Advanced Adventures line from XRP, Anomalous Subsurface Environments, etc., etc., etc. Beyond that, WotC reprinted OD&D and the 1e hardbacks as well a several other hardbacks and adventure compilations, and started taking their stewardship of their older IP seriously with the pdf program with DriveThru, including several print on demand options.

From our perspective, we won. We got what we wanted. Not much else to do other than game. So, it probably shouldn't come as a surprise that the OSR mantle has been taken up by those who are neither satisfied with WotC's version of D&D and who want something different/more than the same old, same old pre-WotC editions. I kind of wish they'd come up with some other term for themselves than "OSR." but it is what it is.
Thanks for the perspective! Would you say "OSR" does or should correspond to any specific play style (as in Matt Finch's primer)? Or is it just about early editions, played in all the various ways those editions were played at the time?
 

Greggy C

Hero
From our perspective, we won. We got what we wanted. Not much else to do other than game.
Its pretty cool, I do like the OSE. Bummer the only copy of the game is on ebay at $240. I bought the pdf but I'm more of a book person.
So thousands of modules but nobody is publishing more of the rule books, we have to wait for each kickstarter. I guess I can just buy an extra 100 copies and massive profit from it ! :)
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
That's definitely an interesting question. In my observation those games were a side-interest of some participants in the OSR going back to the beginning of the movement, and they're a good edge/corner case demonstration of why the OSR should probably be more capacious than just Old School D&D. Though a lot of this is personal opinion, of course.

The fact they were also TSR products confuses the issue, but as kind of an oddity, most games of that period that kept any kind of real fandom of any size also seem to have managed to stay in print (possibly just because they weren't owned by TSR, though there's obviously other issues with MSH). I've seen a couple retroclones of later games, but the only one that comes to mind was another licensed product and thus, effectively, forced out of print.

Edit: In fact, I have considerable sympathy for the poster a couple above and the position the OD&D and other early edition fans found themselves in, though I should note they weren't the only ones fond of games that could no longer be legally acquired. Besides the two I mention above, DragonQuest fans were in the same position as were fans of early editions of games that were in still in print in some form (I'm pretty sure that was the situation for Black Box Traveler at the time, though it no longer is).

Yes, though I think some of those mechanics are at least tangentially part of the same exploration. Random character generation still has some adherents, but has become increasingly outmoded in D&D design. Re-examining how, for example, OD&D and B/X treat ability scores, can give us more insight into when and why random abilities can work and be fun, even if that's something I completely abandoned while I was playing 4E, and mostly so with 5E.

There are absolutely proponents of random generation even now, but the preference seems unconnected in any logical way with the rest of the Old School D&D model usually presented by folks into that. Yet it still seems mostly attached to it.
 
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Its pretty cool, I do like the OSE. Bummer the only copy of the game is on ebay at $240. I bought the pdf but I'm more of a book person.
So thousands of modules but nobody is publishing more of the rule books, we have to wait for each kickstarter. I guess I can just buy an extra 100 copies and massive profit from it ! :)
Print copy of basic fantasy rpg is only $6 : Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game

You can also get a print on demand copy of the rules cyclopedia, not sure how much
 

Aldarc

Legend
Its pretty cool, I do like the OSE. Bummer the only copy of the game is on ebay at $240. I bought the pdf but I'm more of a book person.
So thousands of modules but nobody is publishing more of the rule books, we have to wait for each kickstarter. I guess I can just buy an extra 100 copies and massive profit from it ! :)
I believe there is an upcoming Kickstarter for an OSE Box Set in February.
 


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