D&D 3E/3.5 A list of 3e problems and how they were tackled in PF

[jasin]

Are you sure those DC's are right? That seems awfully low to me. Sounds like errata or house rule fodder to me.

That's what the PRD says.

magic item Creation

The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item.

Wondrous Items

Headband of Inspired Wisdom

Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th

Headband of Mental Prowess

Aura strong transmutation; CL 12th

headband of Mental Superiority

Aura strong transmutation; CL 16th

 

[Shazman]

I would definitely add 10 to the DC for crafting magic items as a houserule. What good does it do to get rid of magic item "Wal-Marts" if the PC's can make them so easily?

 

[Starbuck_II]

Unfortunately, yes. This is straight from the author. The Vital Strike feat chain is not meant to be usable with a Charge attack.

Yet another of the ever-growing list of things I've had to house rule about Pathfinder. I'm getting rather annoyed by this fact, but I find myself actually taking the time to write out more and more house rules for Pathfinder than I ever did for 3.5.

It is possible it was oblivious to them charge is a D&D word.
They meant walk/move up to the enemy, but then that would be weird since Charge is an often used D&D word.

So did they ever mention why no Charge + VS? Was it too strong in their minds?

 

[darkdragoon]

No skills got "less potent", they almost all across the board got better. They certainly didn't get worse. Every class has access to 1 more skill point per level (favored class bonus). Fly skill isn't a skill tax, unless you can, you know, fly.

Ok, let's say I want to Ride. I lose my skill synergy bonus. I take an armor check penalty because it is a Dexterity related check (as opposed to the old version where I only take a penalty for a certain use). I also probably have less ranks because my ranks cannot be higher than HD. How am I better at Ride? Or, say Tumble. Ok, Acrobatics, consolidating means I put all in one and can balance better too, yay. Oh wait, I now have to beat a CMD that is almost universally higher (barring some across the board nerfing in the Bestiary) than the old DCs. Oh yeah, that consolidation also means I'm down 2 again. So I am somehow better with a smaller bonus against a higher target. Being able to fly is quite handy if you want to fight high level monsters or get to places. I think just about everybody wants to do that. 1 skill point or 1 HP is hardly a fix.

Almost in every case, this leads to MORE uses of rage, not less (no activating a rage for a fight that is suddenly and unexpectedly over in 2 rounds

What you're missing is that there are plenty of opportunities for a DM to get you to burn rounds outside of combat and risk being fatigued when trouble starts. As far as the Bard, one of the major points of using them is the songs, specifically Inspire Courage. Cut down the song duration, you cut down the Bard's effectiveness. So if you have a Bard and they are out of cool stuff, you stop unless you are dumb. Hence your workday is over.

What you derisively call "bloated" is actuall a fix to another area of complaint.

I really doubt anyone was complaining that Improved Trip needed to be broken up into two feats. I especially doubt that anyone thought Two-Weapon Rend needs FOUR prereq feats instead of one AND throw in a higher Dex requirement for more lulz. What's the point of aping PHB II feats if you're going to make them worse than the PHB II versions? Even more confusing is changing up the old standbys. I can see where a "hit enemy, hit enemy next to him" can be useful. I don't see why it had to be a replacement for Cleave instead of a new feat. Weapon Focus is a combat feat, so why does there have to be a separate Rogue Talent for it when another one is "pick a Combat feat."? Why is Weapon Finesse not a combat feat, for that matter? People want BETTER feats. More is not a synonym for better.

 

[Voadam]

Ok, let's say I want to Ride. I lose my skill synergy bonus. I take an armor check penalty because it is a Dexterity related check (as opposed to the old version where I only take a penalty for a certain use). I also probably have less ranks because my ranks cannot be higher than HD. How am I better at Ride?

I'll take a shot at that.

First you bring up two good points.

It is true that now there is an armor check penalty, so this will definitely hurt armored horsemen. Mollified a little bit by fighter reduction in armor check penalties this still starts at -6 for full plate.

Also true the no skill synergies is a drawback for those fighters who spent 5 skill points out of their too few skill points in handle animal. I consider this minor however.

For those who truly sought to max out their ride skill with every possible point they would take Animal affinity which gave +2 bonus and skill focus which gave +3. Those do the same in PF but then double their bonuses at 10th level.

However while they have max ranks = HD vs. max ranks = HD +3 for a class skill, they get a +3 bonus if this is a class skill, so the end number is the same.

If you don't max out from the beginning PF generally puts you three farther ahead than 3.5.

If ride is not a class skill then you still have a PF max rank of HD instead of 3.5's (HD +3)/2 with double skill point cost. At 1st level maxing out a cross class skill you do better in 3.5 but then become even at 2nd and fall behind at 3rd and are paying twice as many of your skill points to do so.

So armor check is a definite downgrade for fighter and paladin knights.

No synergies is a minor drawback (loss of a +2 bonus) only applicable to those who were built around maxing out ride skill numbers. However this is countered somewhat at tenth level by the extra +2 bonus for those with the animal affinity feat and +3 from skill focus.

Maxing out skill ranks leaves you the same bonus for class skills in 3.5 and PF.

Trying to get maximum ride skill number total, a little advantage for 3.5 knight concept fighters and paladins as they don't have the full plate mail -6, at higher level PF fighters do very well though.

Maxing out cross class skills gives PF the accelerating advantage.

Starting later and not maxing out gives the advantage to PF in both class and nonclass skill classes.

 

[Voadam]

You may not have noticed that the availability of magic items for purchase is explicitly limited in Pathfinder. There is only a slight chance that PC's can buy what they want just because they have the gold. That is what will encourage PC's to keep and use the more interesting, less used magic items that they find.

Slight chance?
"There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community." Three out of four is not guaranteed but I'd say it is better than a slight chance.

Now I don't have the DMG with me and I don't think the item availability values are found in the 3.5 srd but the gp town limits do look lower to me at a glance. I don't know if that is because I almost never look up those values though. Having to go to a large city for a +2 sword seems restrictive though.

Community Size Base Value Minor Medium Major
Thorp 50 gp 1d4 items — —
Hamlet 200 gp 1d6 items — —
Village 500 gp 2d4 items 1d4 items —
Small town 1,000 gp 3d4 items 1d6 items —
Large town 2,000 gp 3d4 items 2d4 items 1d4 items
Small city 4,000 gp 4d4 items 3d4 items 1d6 items
Large city 8,000 gp 4d4 items 3d4 items 2d4 items
Metropolis 16,000 gp * 4d4 items 3d4 items
* in a metropolis, nearly all minor magic items are available.

Anybody have access to the 3.5 values for comparisons?

 

[Twowolves]

Ok, let's say I want to Ride. I lose my skill synergy bonus. I take an armor check penalty because it is a Dexterity related check (as opposed to the old version where I only take a penalty for a certain use). I also probably have less ranks because my ranks cannot be higher than HD. How am I better at Ride? Or, say Tumble. Ok, Acrobatics, consolidating means I put all in one and can balance better too, yay. Oh wait, I now have to beat a CMD that is almost universally higher (barring some across the board nerfing in the Bestiary) than the old DCs. Oh yeah, that consolidation also means I'm down 2 again. So I am somehow better with a smaller bonus against a higher target. Being able to fly is quite handy if you want to fight high level monsters or get to places. I think just about everybody wants to do that. 1 skill point or 1 HP is hardly a fix. What you're missing is that there are plenty of opportunities for a DM to get you to burn rounds outside of combat and risk being fatigued when trouble starts. As far as the Bard, one of the major points of using them is the songs, specifically Inspire Courage. Cut down the song duration, you cut down the Bard's effectiveness. So if you have a Bard and they are out of cool stuff, you stop unless you are dumb. Hence your workday is over. I really doubt anyone was complaining that Improved Trip needed to be broken up into two feats. I especially doubt that anyone thought Two-Weapon Rend needs FOUR prereq feats instead of one AND throw in a higher Dex requirement for more lulz. What's the point of aping PHB II feats if you're going to make them worse than the PHB II versions? Even more confusing is changing up the old standbys. I can see where a "hit enemy, hit enemy next to him" can be useful. I don't see why it had to be a replacement for Cleave instead of a new feat. Weapon Focus is a combat feat, so why does there have to be a separate Rogue Talent for it when another one is "pick a Combat feat."? Why is Weapon Finesse not a combat feat, for that matter? People want BETTER feats. More is not a synonym for better.

You must be tired from moving those goalposts so much.

1) you said skills got worse. They did not. Armor check penalties may or may not affect a given character based on that player's choice of armor. These are two separate issues. That armor hinders some skills in no way changes the fact that almost every skill got better, or more flexible, or more useful. But hey, if you wanna pick and choose skills to make your point, why not pick Swim? Armor check penalties are no longer doubled for swim, but since that doesn't fit nicely into your pigeon-hole, you just ignore that I see.

2) Barbarians now get more rounds/day of their rage ability, AND a ton of special rage powers to choose from. But because "there are plenty of opportunities for a DM to get you to burn rounds outside of combat and risk being fatigued when trouble starts", it's somehow bad? Because some DMs can possible dick you over, the CLASS is no good? I see.... ?? No wait, I don't. That makes no sense at all. Bards can't provide perpetual bonuses, so they aren't worth having. Wait, what?? More spells and earlier access to them get ignored I see.

3) you complained of "feat bloat", and I pointed out that many of these "bloated" feats are really Fighter class abilities put in another section (since technically, any full BAB class can get some of them). Then you launch into a rant against the changes to the feats. That's fine, if that was what you want to complain about, but they are two different things. Or are you one of those people who don't like feats and hate picking them? Splitting up some feats they felt were too good or too easy to get is a way to keep them available to fighters (which get more feats than anyone) and make others think twice about them. Especially dual wielding sneak-attacking rogues (who already got a big combat boost when Sneak Attack started affecting more creatures). 3b) you complain about too many (supposedly unnecessary) feats, but want the new Cleave to be a different feat in addition to the old one? Make up your mind already. Or at least pick an arguement and stick with it instead of jumping around like a flea in a frying pan.

 

[Voadam]

Because they were shooting for a unified mechanic? Because "extra" counting is really just counting, which is a pretty easy thing to do.

Easy but annoying and the more you have to do the more distracting it is.

Already you are tracking hp and doing simple math for every attack roll, saving throw, and adjusting for the effects of the bardic song. One more count to keep track of and one more round by round resource management decision.

 

[Voadam]

I rather find counting once a battle (as you had 4 uses to cover 4 battles/day at 4th) easier than 1 this rd, 1 this rd, 1 this round, etc.

Easier on paper too as less erasing.

Except you still had to countdown rounds in 3.5 if your barbarian was in a long fight as the rage only lasted a certain number of fixed rounds and not for a whole encounter.

In 3.5 though you didn't have to make the PF barbarian resource management decision of on/off rage each round with fatigue consequences measured in rounds as well that must be tracked.

 

[Voadam]

I still see color spray, ray of enfeeblement, dominate person, solid fog, stinking cloud, slow, sleet storm, enervation, wave of fatigue/exhaustion, confusion, forcecage (though the target's been granted a ref save) etc.

Save or suck isn't limited to glitterdust and web, you know, though those two are probably overpowered for their level as they were originally written. Some of the best suck spells doesn't even require a save.

PRD Spells

Color Spray is save or suck for multiple rounds depending on level.
Ray of enfeeblement is save for half str penalty for 1 rnd/lvl.
Dominate person is save or suck for days.
solid fog is terrain control blocking missile fire and slowing movement. I don't consider it a save or suck spell.
Stinking cloud is save or suck for 1 rnd/level + a bunch, plus save again each round until fail if don't exit. Save or suck ++.
Slow is save or suck for 1 rnd/level.
Sleet storm blocks sight and makes movement difficult. I don't really consider it save or suck.
Enervation is save or suck.
Wave of fatigue is spell resistance or suck.
Waves of Exhaustion is spell resistance or suck.
Confusion is save or suck for 1 rnd/level.
Force cage is save or suck for 1 rnd/level.
Insanity is save or suck permanent.

Color Spray

School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (red, yellow, and blue powder or colored sand)

Range 15 ft.

Area cone-shaped burst

Duration instantaneous; see text

Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes

A vivid cone of clashing colors springs forth from your hand, causing creatures to become stunned, perhaps also blinded, and possibly knocking them unconscious. Each creature within the cone is affected according to its HD.

2 HD or less: The creature is unconscious, blinded, and stunned for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, and then stunned for 1 round. (Only living creatures are knocked unconscious.)

3 or 4 HD: The creature is blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round.

5 or more HD: The creature is stunned for 1 round.

Sightless creatures are not affected by color spray.

Ray of Enfeeblement

School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 1

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Effect ray

Duration 1 round/level

Saving Throw Fortitude half; Spell Resistance yes

A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1. A successful Fortitude save reduces this penalty by half. This penalty does not stack with itself. Apply the highest penalty instead.

Dominate Person

School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 4, sorcerer/wizard 5

Casting Time 1 round

Components V, S

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target one humanoid

Duration 1 day/level

Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes

You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject's mind.

If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically.

Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject's behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).

Changing your orders or giving a dominated creature a new command is a move action.

By concentrating fully on the spell (a standard action), you can receive full sensory input as interpreted by the mind of the subject, though it still can't communicate with you. You can't actually see through the subject's eyes, so it's not as good as being there yourself, but you still get a good idea of what's going on.

Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it.

If you don't spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination.

Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect does not automatically dispel it.

Solid Fog

School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 4

Components: V, S, M (powdered peas and an animal hoof)

Duration 1 min./level

Spell Resistance no

This spell functions like fog cloud, but in addition to obscuring sight, the solid fog is so thick that it impedes movement. Creatures moving through a solid fog move at half their normal speed and take a –2 penalty on all melee attack and melee damage rolls. The vapors prevent effective ranged weapon attacks (except for magic rays and the like). A creature or object that falls into solid fog is slowed so that each 10 feet of vapor that it passes through reduces the falling damage by 1d6. A creature cannot take a 5-foot-step while in solid fog. Solid fog, and effects that work like solid fog, do not stack with each other in terms of slowed movement and attack penalties.

Unlike normal fog, only a severe wind (31+ mph) disperses these vapors, and it does so in 1 round.

Solid fog can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent solid fog dispersed by wind reforms in 10 minutes.

Stinking Cloud

School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (a rotten egg or cabbage leaves)

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)

Effect cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high

Duration 1 round/level

Saving Throw Fortitude negates; see text; Spell Resistance no

Stinking cloud creates a bank of fog like that created by fog cloud, except that the vapors are nauseating. Living creatures in the cloud become nauseated. This condition lasts as long as the creature is in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after it leaves. (Roll separately for each nauseated character.) Any creature that succeeds on its save but remains in the cloud must continue to save each round on your turn.

Stinking cloud can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent stinking cloud dispersed by wind reforms in 10 minutes.

Slow

School transmutation; Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (a drop of molasses)

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

Duration 1 round/level

Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes

An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. Creatures affected by this spell are staggered and can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.

Multiple slow effects don't stack. Slow counters and dispels haste

Sleet Storm

School conjuration (creation) [cold]; Level druid 3, sorcerer/wizard 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M/DF (dust and water)

Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

Area cylinder (40-ft. radius, 20 ft. high)

Duration 1 round/level

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

Driving sleet blocks all sight (even darkvision) within it and causes the ground in the area to be icy. A creature can walk within or through the area of sleet at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move in that round, while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details).

The sleet extinguishes torches and small fires.

Enervation

School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 4

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Effect ray of negative energy

Duration instantaneous

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

You point your finger and fire a black ray of negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit. If you hit, the subject gains 1d4 temporary negative levels (see Special Abilities). Negative levels stack.

Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15 hours). Usually, negative levels have a chance of becoming permanent, but the negative levels from enervation don't last long enough to do so.

An undead creature struck by the ray gains 1d4 × 5 temporary hit points for 1 hour.

Waves of Exhaustion

School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 7

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range 60 ft.

Area cone-shaped burst

Duration instantaneous

Saving Throw no; Spell Resistance yes

Waves of negative energy cause all living creatures in the spell's area to become exhausted. This spell has no effect on a creature that is already exhausted.

Waves of Fatigue

School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 5

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range 30 ft.

Area cone-shaped burst

Duration instantaneous

Saving Throw no; Spell Resistance yes

Waves of negative energy render all living creatures in the spell's area fatigued. This spell has no effect on a creature that is already fatigued.

Confusion

School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 4

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M/DF (three nutshells)

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)

Targets all creatures in a 15-ft.-radius burst

Duration 1 round/level

Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes

This spell causes confusion in the targets, making them unable to determine their actions. Roll on the following table at the start of each subject's turn each round to see what it does in that round.

d% Behavior
01–25 Act normally
26–50 Do nothing but babble incoherently
51–75 Deal 1d8 points of damage + Str modifier to self with item in hand
76–100 Attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject's self)

A confused character who can't carry out the indicated action does nothing but babble incoherently. Attackers are not at any special advantage when attacking a confused character. Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes. Note that a confused character will not make attacks of opportunity against any creature that it is not already devoted to attacking (either because of its most recent action or because it has just been attacked).

Forcecage

School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 7

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (ruby dust worth 500 gp)

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Area barred cage (20-ft. cube) or windowless cell (10-ft. cube)

Duration 1 round/level (D)

Saving Throw Reflex negates; Spell Resistance no

This spell creates an immobile, invisible cubical prison composed of either bars of force or solid walls of force (your choice).

Creatures within the area are caught and contained unless they are too big to fit inside, in which case the spell automatically fails. Teleportation and other forms of astral travel provide a means of escape, but the force walls or bars extend into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel.

Like a wall of force, a forcecage resists dispel magic, although a mage's disjunction still functions. The walls of a forcecage can be damaged by spells as normal, except for disintegrate, which automatically destroys it. The walls of a forcecage can be damaged by weapons and supernatural abilities, but they have a Hardness of 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level. Contact with a sphere of annihilation or rod of cancellation instantly destroys a forcecage.

Barred Cage: This version of the spell produces a 20-foot cube made of bands of force (similar to a wall of force spell) for bars. The bands are a half-inch wide, with half-inch gaps between them. Any creature capable of passing through such a small space can escape; others are confined within the barred cage. You can't attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover. All spells and breath weapons can pass through the gaps in the bars.

Windowless Cell: This version of the spell produces a 10-foot cube with no way in and no way out. Solid walls of force form its six sides.