A mini-rant re: Pathfinder and D&D

[Pilgrim]

Pathfinder is a revised version of 3.5 edition D&D; it is not a new creation, but a modification. Paizo's house rules of 3.5, if you will.

This is incorrect. Pathfinder is not a revised version of 3.5 D&D. Pathfinder is a game system derived from the OGL, similarities to D&D or not.

Now, I know some people will want to argue the semantics of the OGL = D&D, but the fact is, they are not one in the same. The OGL is a basis, a framework from which the D&D 3.x game is derived. This is also the same base/framework from which all clones and OGL games are created.

While they may all be classified as OGL games, they are not all D&D.

If players want to think of their OGL games as D&D, neither I nor anyone else can change that, but just because they want it to be true, does not make it so. That would be like saying that because Pepsi is a dark, sugary, carbonated drink, that it is Coke. They may both be derived from a similar formula, but one is not the other regardless of how many people enjoy drinking both and "personally" consider them to be one in the same.

 

[The Shaman]

*snipped*

Again, you have not answered the question put to you. I want to know your answer, with the same simple declarative with which you announced in your original post, "Pathfinder is D&D" (emphasis all yours).

So let's try again. To make this easy, you just quote me, and delete the part of the answer that doesn't apply to you.

Castles and Crusades is/is not D&D.

Lamentations of the Flame Princess is/is not D&D.

Mutant Future is/is not D&D

 

[enrious]

Again, I ask - What is D&D?

Please cite your sources.

It's that simple and that silly. (And yes, I think 4e is D&D. Just as I think Pathfinder is.)

 

[Mercurius]

Shaman, I answered already. Why must I answer in the way that you want me to?

First of all, every RPG is D&D in terms of the 4th definition, so the answer to all three is "yes" in terms of that perspective. I don't know enough about any of the three to answer 1 with any degree of accuracy, so let's leave that aside. We can also say that none of them hold the brand so they are all "no" to 2. So it comes down to 3; I'd hold that retro-clones of any edition of D&D would be a "yes;" the same would go to close adaptations or variants, so C&C and Lamentations would probably be a "yes." Mutant Future, I have no idea, but would assume "no." So:

C&C - maybe, no, yes, yes
Lamentations - maybe, no, yes, yes
Mutant Future - probably not, no, probably not, yet

But again, the point that you seem to be ignoring is that the question can only be answered if we set some kind of context or definition to the term "D&D." I came up with four different definitions that, I feel, cover the gamut and actually allows for everyone to be happy. The only one of the three definitions that is actually arguable is 3, which is whether or not a game is close enough to some version of branded D&D to be called "D&D" or, if we want to cop out, "basically D&D." The first definition is completely subjective and allows for people to say things like "4E isn't D&D to me" or "Cheese Whiz is D&D to me." The second definition is purely brand oriented and thus factual and easily answered (i.e. "D&D" is what the owners of the term say it is). The fourth definition is the typical non-gamer perspective, so is the big umbrella view that encapsulates what seems D&Dish to someone who doesn't know any better. So, again, the only real room for discussion is the third definition, which is whether a game is close enough to branded D&D to be called D&D.

 

[gamerprinter]

While they may all be classified as OGL games, they are not all D&D.

Neither 1e nor 2e are OGL based, yet you cannot say they are not D&D.

When I state that I think all games having the d20 etc mechanics are D&D to me, I am also refering to games like Rolemaster that emulated 1e and never the OGL system - and I still define that as D&D.

The license is a thing for publishers and lawyers, not game players to whom it is practically meaningless. I know plenty of D&D players that have no idea what OGL or GSL even means, or what they have to do with in game (which is absolutely nothing).

 

[The Shaman]

Why must I answer in the way that you want me to?

Why can't you answer the question with the same directness with which you decalre Pathfinder to be D&D?

So far, every time I've asked you a direct question, you respond with, 'Well it could be this, or this, or this, depending on yadda-yadda-yadda.'

But you don't seem to have anything resembling the same problem announcing that Pathfinder is D&D. You even doubled down on that opinion on the last page of posts.

So why can't you give a simple yes, I think it is, or no, I don't think it is, for the games I asked you about? I'd like to know if the same standard you personally apply to Pathfinder applies to these other games as well.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Because I have not seen diaglo in a while - OD&D (1974) is the one true game. All other games are just pale reflections of the real thing.

The Auld Grump

 

[Mercurius]

Shaman, we're at an impasse. You want me to answer a certain way then, when I explain why I can't answer it that way and offer another way to answer, you don't accept it.

Not really anywhere to go with this.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Shaman, we're at an impasse. You want me to answer a certain way then, when I explain why I can't answer it that way and offer another way to answer, you don't accept it.

Not really anywhere to go with this.

In honesty, there really was nowhere that this discussion could go from the beginning.

Folks won't all agree with the premise, and with reasons that are likely completely reasonable.

Best let D&D be D&D and Pathfinder be Pathfinder, all else leads to lack of clarity at best, arguments at worst. Proponents of each of the systems will all have reasons that trying to use a single brand name just is not going to work.

I may feel that Pathfinder is either D&D, or more D&D than the current incarnation by that title, but calling it D&D will just lead to confusion and ruffled feathers.

The Auld Grump

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I may feel that Pathfinder is either D&D, or more D&D than the current incarnation by that title, but calling it D&D will just lead to confusion and ruffled feathers.

Indeed, it's seemingly every bit as contentious as my assertion that 4Ed doesn't feel like D&D to me...the very flipside of it.