D&D 5E A Modest Proposal to Unify the Fanbase without D&D Next

[Stasis_Delirium]

The answer is never" 'make less art'. The answer is: 'make more art'.

If the new edition displeases you, there are always other options out there. Positive ones. Ones that don't put down the people who _do_ want to see innovation and attempts at refining things. To belittle and push aside people who are so far enjoying what they see in 5e enough to keep curiously following it's trajectory.

The answer is never, ever: 'do not try'.

Even if this does turn into a 'disaster' that ends D&D, I would rather see Wizards at least TRY new things, rather than rely on churning out old books while the designers simply spin in their chairs and throw pencils into the ceiling tiles, allowing the game that so many love simply die off due to becoming stale. It doesn't hurt to try. Failure can happen. But so can success.

This seems to be a wild reaction to a very, very, very short and basic glimpse at a playtest document, and a few nebulous articles on thoughts the designers have. Playtests are mercurial, the entirety of every rule and function can change drastically. The point of the playtest is to actually see what does work and build a core around it. Not take every single suggestion to heart and make a kitchen-sink.

So no, I won't sign any petition that tells people to stifle their creativity, or censor themselves. I will allow people to thrive or fail on their own merits and hard work. To do otherwise..

..Well, to do otherwise is to create less art.

And that is never the answer.

 

[TwoSix]

I support this proposal, but I'm more interested in continuing the support for other editions than in necessarily cutting support for D&DNext. Support OD&D, 1e/2e, 3e, 4e, and 5e if 5e can fit.

 

[drothgery]

I can't really get behind this kind of petition. I want to see a new edition. I want there to be a 5E. I just want a new 5E to bring more innovation and change to the game, and try to be something better than what came before. My problem with 5E is that it seems to be failing to do that, not the fact that it is coming.

Exactly. Last year, I was arguing that it was not too soon for 5e (since no WotC RPG has ever gone five years without a major revision or falling out of print, and as much as I might wish otherwise, clearly a lot of the D&D player base doesn't like 4e). I'm not happy with the direction 5e seems to be going, and if further playtest docs don't change my opinion, I may end up eating my words and not buying even the initial rulebooks. But WotC's job is to make money, not to make me happy; supporting multiple editions is a terrible business move. So if 5e isn't something I can live with, I'll end up advocating sticking with 4e or playing 13th Age or some other non-D&D game and actually playing 3.5.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It may as well not exist? For you perhaps. If you like your game as is, play it and ignore 5E. Even if you never see any 4E material published ever again, you still have your books and your game. Nobody owes you the continuation of the current edition, so I wonder why you feel it necessary to contribute, if you are already satisfied?

I can't begin to count how many times irate 3.5 fans were told basically that. Didn't stop them from defecting to Pathfinder and waging the edition war to (successfully) kill 4e.

Anyway, it's spot-on topic. Ongoing support for 4e would keep him as a customer. Ongoing support for 3.5 would have kept its fans as customers - and maybe even kept them from killing off 4e (maybe).

For the most part (with the possible exception of the 3.5/4e edition war), rejection of a new ed isn't about denying it to those who might like it, but about keeping support for what the hold-out likes. This is a good proposal to take that into account - and a better idea than creating a frankenstein edition pieced together from the corpses of classic versions of D&D.

 

[Morrus]

So, unless I'm completely misunderstanding the blog article in question, the inspiration and logical basis for this petition was:

"Stop trying to tell the people what they want and instead, give them what they want. If people are currently playing four different systems of D&D (and they are: Rules Cyclopedia (including Basic, etc.), AD&D (both editions), 3/3.5 and 4) then obviously what they want is four different systems."

But when 5E comes out, people will be playing five systems. So obviously what they want is five different systems. And ten years ago, they were playing three systems. So obviously what they want is three different systems.

The logic "people want what is currently available because they are using what is currently available" is flawed; it's a circular argument. They can't use what isn't currently available.

I'm very much not behind this petition.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't think the point is that 'they' want 3, 4, or 5 editions. Rather, the point is that each old edition retains a fan base, and that no new edition could hope to capture all those fans. Not by being better than the old eds (each new edition /has/ been better). Not by being a weird retro-compromise among past editions.

Each new edition creates some new fans - some converts from old editions, some new - some of whom will stick with it in preference to the next ed.

Supporting all eds makes sense as long as old eds have fans.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a 5e, just that it shouldn't come only 4 years after 4e, and that it shouldn't be focusing on winning back customers who stayed with old eds, but with simply being a better (and/or more modern/trendy) game that might attract yet more fans to add to the D&D fold.

 

[TerraDave]

But what if they do 5E, and a lot of people actually like it and buy it?


The worse thing that happens is that 5E fails, and we pretty much at the point the petition is pushing for.

 

[Tony Vargas]

But what if they do 5E, and a lot of people actually like it and buy it?

A lot of things could happen. Hell might freeze over, pigs gain fly speeds, peace in the middle east, the second coming, asteroid impacts...

The worse thing that happens is that 5E fails, and we pretty much at the point the petition is pushing for.

Except none of the support would be coming from the defunct D&D unit of Hasbro, at that point - it'd all be 3pp.

Actually, between retro-clones and Pathfinder, all editions of D&D /except/ 4e, will be supported in perpetuity, anyway, so it's pretty close.

WotC thinks they can tap into the enthusiasm for 3.5 and retro-clones with a single 'new' edition, even though 3.5 fans have already (violently) rejected one new ed, and retro-clone fans two or more.

They're re-publishing 1e, anyway, why not just put out the new stuff for it, too?

Why not do the same for 2e, the Rules Cyclopaedia, and 3.5?

After 4e has had an honest run, do the same for it.... And for 5e when, 6e comes out...

 

[Umbran]

Supporting all eds makes sense as long as old eds have fans.

Correction: Supporting old editions make sense so long as the remaining fans generate enough business to make that support worthwhile to the company - either by turning a profit, or by acting as a loss-leader and generating other associated sales.

There is a point at which supporting legacy products ceases to be a useful part of a business plan. You don't see Apple supporting the operating system of Apple II computers any more, for example. The world moves on, and eventually products move on.

They're re-publishing 1e, anyway, why not just put out the new stuff for it, too?

New stuff doesn't grow on trees. You need to hire and pay designers to make it. If you, as a company, don't think that business will drive enough sales to pay for the design and production of the new stuff, then you don't produce new stuff.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Supporting old editions make sense so long as the remaining fans generate enough business to make that support worthwhile to the company - either by turning a profit, or by acting as a loss-leader and generating other associated sales.

I thought that was obvious, yes, but thanks for the clarification. The success of Pathfinder and retro-clones certainly demonstrates a viable business opportunity that WotC let others pick up by failing to keep ongoing support for classic D&D and 3.5, FWIW. Even if the GSL prevents any 3pp from filling the same sort of demand for 4e, that demand may still be there for WotC to capitalize on, if they so choose.

The world moves on, and eventually products move on.

And sometimes products move backwards even as the world moves on. That's exactly what 5e is doing in trying to cater simultaneously to fans of classic and modern editions of D&D.

5e is trying to do the same thing that simply re-printing and supporting old editions would do: capture revenue from fans of older editions. This is not about 'moving on' and ignoring older editions. This is about whether to give fans of each older ed exactly what they want vs selling them all a single 'new' compromise ed that has some of what they want. 'Moving on' is what 4e did, and WotC was crucified for it.

 

[Mallus]

The success of Pathfinder and retro-clones certainly demonstrates a viable business opportunity that WotC let others pick up by failing to keep ongoing support for classic D&D and 3.5, FWIW.

Careful with your evidence, there.

What Pathfinder demonstrates is a company smaller than WotC, which excels in an area they weren't finding profitable (ie, adventures), can succeed by supporting 3e-style D&D.

What the OSR demonstrates is a cottage industry producing older D&D compatible materials, often offering their materials free of cost, can keep doing so. Presumably because they have day jobs. This is not to knock the OSR, I've bought some great supplements, but that says roughly nothing about the economic realities faced by WotC.

5e is trying to do the same thing that simply re-printing and supporting old editions would do: capture revenue from fans of older editions.

This is misleading.

What they're doing, rules-wise, is synthesizing several edition into a new one. Personally, that's what I want. I don't need reprints -- I have all the originals. Looking at 5e as merely a money-grab directed at fans of older editions misses a critical point: there are plenty of D&D fans who'd like a less complicated and faster playing version of 3e/4e or a more mechanically robust version of AD&D/2e -- ie, the kind of game WoTC is aiming for.

 

[Elf Witch]

While I think they should support their older editions with either reprints, print on demand or PDFs. I do think they should be try and bring out a new edition.

As for new content for older editions a magazine either print or online could handle this fairly well. How hard would it be to have options and adventures written for the different editions? There are a lot of people who have the ability to write such articles

Also bringing out edition free books on settings is a wonderful idea.

 

[Fifth Element]

They're re-publishing 1e, anyway, why not just put out the new stuff for it, too?

They are not getting back into publishing 1E. They are re-printing some 1E books. It's not the same thing. Converting a 1E book to modern publishing standards is not the equivalent of developing entirely new products.

 

[innerdude]

I'm not really in the market for a new RPG, to be honest, but WotC is in the market for ME. If WotC wants me as a customer, they need to do better than to staple together a bunch of sacred cows from various editions, many of which I could care less about or find offensive, with no overall guiding plan.

Yup, yes, exactly, spot on, bingo.

 

[Tony Vargas]

They are not getting back into publishing 1E. They are re-printing some 1E books. It's not the same thing. Converting a 1E book to modern publishing standards is not the equivalent of developing entirely new products.

OK, They're re-printing 1e, anyway, why not just put out some new stuff for it, too? It wouldn't have to be a lot. The occasional module or campaign guide with stats for every ed in the back. Re-printed supplements - and, eventually, new ones. It wouldn't require a vast development effort since 1e was a pretty complete game, anyway, by the end of it's 10+ year run.

 

[Kabluey]

I doubt you'll ever see this happen, no matter how many signatures you get.

First, dropping 5E and supporting only the prior editions leaves out a potentially large group - or at least it seems like a large group to me, because it's the group that I'm a part of . That is, the group of players who have left D&D for other games. I've DM'd every edition since 1st (never ran or played Basic D&D, though I read the rules and still own the old Rules Cyclopedia), and for the first 15-20 years of my gaming life ran D&D almost exclusively, from 1st up through 3rd Edition. But 3E killed it for me. It was too complex, too many of the products were crap, and I wanted to try different things. I certainly look back on my 1st and 2nd games with fondness, but I don't want to play those games again. They were great when I ran them, but the mechanics are dated now. So if WoTC wants to draw back in the segment of the fan base that I represent, then a new edition is needed. And though I didn't mention it, I did pick up 4E briefly with enthusiasm when it first came out - and hated it.

Second, while nostalgic reprints are nice, I can't see WoTC having enough staff to support all these editions, especially older ones.

Third, I'm not sure that they'd sell that many copies. I still have my old 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Edition books; why do I have to buy them again? Sure, they could sell modules, but it was always my understanding that modules aren't a big money-maker for companies. For every book you sell, you at best sell only 1/5th the number of module copies, assuming every group buys your module.

Fourth, and finally, I just can't see WoTC doing this. Sure, they don't mind selling some 1st and 3.5 books now, as well as obviously continuing to support 4E for a while longer, but when 5E comes out in a year or so, they're not going to want sales of prior editions to cannibalize 5E sales. When they launch a new edition, they don't just drop support of the prior one because they're mean or don't care about that fan base, it's because it makes the most business sense.

I'm sorry 5E isn't turning out the way you would have wanted (though there's still plenty of time for that to change, of course), but short of ponying up the cash to buy the IP or company, I don't think you're going to see this happen.

 

[Tony Vargas]

What Pathfinder demonstrates is a company smaller than WotC, which excels in an area they weren't finding profitable (ie, adventures), can succeed by supporting 3e-style D&D.

Sure, it's obvious that Paizo, a small business by any reasonable definition, and WotC, a unit of a huge corporation, necessarily have different business models. For Paizo, exploiting the opportunity presented by ongoing demand for 3.5 support is different than it would be for WotC, but both could still try to do it.

And, if WotC is so intent on 're-uniting' their fan base, they clearly /want/ to do it.

What they're doing, rules-wise, is synthesizing several edition into a new one.

And the reason they're doing it is to re-capture the lost revenue that fans of past eds of D&D represent. They may also get plenty of longtime fans who'll buy anything with the logo, and those curious to see whether it's any good, at first, but they are very clearly going back and resurrecting bits of old editions in an appeal to nostalgia - and revenue a successful appeal to nostalgia might bring. They're a for-profit enterprise, and one that is held to quarterly numbers by a corporate parent. Everything they do is about revenue.

I don't need reprints -- I have all the originals.

Which is why they shouldn't stop at re-prints, but put out new material for old eds, as well.

Looking at 5e as merely a money-grab directed at fans of older editions misses a critical point:

The re-prints are clearly a money-grab, even if they're going to give some of it to charity. 5e's appeal to nostalgia is clearly about more than selling one set of books, but getting old fans back on board to buy new stuff going forward. Making new stuff they actually want would also accomplish that.

there are plenty of D&D fans who'd like a less complicated and faster playing version of 3e/4e or a more mechanically robust version of AD&D/2e -- ie, the kind of game WoTC is aiming for.

Meh. I see a lot of fans who are rabid about their favorite edition. I see some who are OK with the game changing and moving forward. The only context in which I see people bringing up compromises like that is when they're arguing against someone who's equally rabid, in an attempt to look a little less rabid, while still knocking a dis-favored ed. But, then, I've got edition-war PTSD... ;(

 

[Fifth Element]

The only context in which I see people bringing up compromises like that is when they're arguing against someone who's equally rabid, in an attempt to look a little less rabid, while still knocking a dis-favored ed. But, then, I've got edition-war PTSD... ;(

You should get that looked at. I'd very much like to see something in-between the complexity of 1/2e and 3/4. That could deal with the frustrations I have with both of them.

 

[El Mahdi]

A Modest Proposal to Unify the Fanbase without D&D Next

I agree with at least part of your proposal: I think WotC should provide support for all previous editions. I think they should do this in the form of returning access for purchasin downloadable electronic versions of all previous edition material in an ownable format, support on DDI for each and every edition (character builders, monster builders, encounter builders, compendiums, etc.), and new material in the form of articles in Dragon and Dungeon.

However, I do still want 5E. I like new editions. New shiny.

If you had a petition for just the first part, I'd sign it, get my group to sign it, and kidnap people off the street and hold them until they signed it (just kidding about that last part...maybe).

But, I think this likely an exercise in futility. And I don't agree that WotC isn't trying to support all fans with 5E. It may not be the support everybody wants, but they are certainly trying.

 

[rjfTrebor]

if you think WotC is just going to throw out two years of work because you made a petition, you're gonna have a bad time.

Also, i like that you think you can speak for the entire community, i for one don't want to keep playing the same editions of DnD, i like them to come up with something new every few years.