A pair of numbers-based issues: how do you all handle them?

Akira Whitlock

Explorer
To challenge my party i have looked out at references other rpgs have done. In world of warcraft bosses are killed by acting a certain way and doing small tasks to prevent the boss from instant killing the party. Some things i have done is to make it so certain monsters have incredibly high AC and have the ability Perfect Defense making them impossible to hit for my melee gods. While these monsters are running around the field i have others that are immune to magic and have high saves but reasonable AC. Other ideas i have thrown out there are summoned minions that after 3 rounds will heal a boss by 50% HP. I use various interactions between the enemies to challenge my party and keep it interesting. Or i just slap a bunch of fun abilities on a boss and give it lots of minions flying by the seat of my pants. We enjoy the number games, we are number lawyers and we enjoy playing characters that fit a strange niche that works with party combat.
 
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Rhuarc

Explorer
I'm planning on doing a new D&D book for 5E that will be for Epic Level play and higher games (17-20+). Got an artist ready to go but a few things still in the design phase.

Hey UK,

don't you dare tease us like this and then don't follow up on your plans (yet again)! I had already given up hope to see anything new from you ever again...I can't take another heartbreaking disappointment :oops:

Also, Pathfinder 2nd looks like a great mix of D&D 4th (couple of designers worked on both) and D&D 3rd. Much more balanced and interesting than 1st edition in my opinion. But focus on 5th for now ^^
 

Hey Akira amigo! :)

Currently i am running a party of deities and they are at level 315, we started out at 200 and progressed from there. Currently what i have in play is a bunch of alterations that balance out combat to make certain things viable. Example: Since the d20 lacks in variability and dnd 3.5 is not designed to go with +30, +70, +1380 after a character makes it to lesser deity, elder one and demiurge stage 3 players will start rolling d100, 1000, and 10,000 respectively. To be adjusted as i see fit. Other things are obvious problems with size categories i generally dont make things too large due to ATK and AC become so negative it is hard to hit anything.
Other small changes are abilities that are obviously exploited IE anything that is related to virtual size categories gets out of hand very quickly with high strength scores.


While i have band-aid fixes to much of this i have a question: How is everyone handling extremely large sizes of creatures? as in once you get to Mega-Fine you have a -32,768 to AC and ATK you kind of miss everything.

I've got ideas how to handle these things in 5E. I think it will make things a lot simpler. One of those ideas is to have multiple stat-blocks for either really big or really powerful beings/monsters. This was an idea I always wanted to implement with 4th Ed. and was inspired by reading early Thor comics particularly where Thor battles Ego (the Living Planet) and (later) the Celestial Exitar.

Another way is to have 'Minions' (in 4E parlance) that have some unique attack/defense. For instance Perhaps one minion (lets call it a "Figment") automatically exists in the mind of everyone attacking the Boss. You can only attack 'your' own figment and killing can cause you Psychic damage - or something like that.
 


Howdy Rhuarc matey! :)

don't you dare tease us like this and then don't follow up on your plans (yet again)! I had already given up hope to see anything new from you ever again...I can't take another heartbreaking disappointment :oops:

I hate mentioning anything until its done...and you guys know how long I can take to get anything done.

I have a few* epic monster ideas, basically comprising all the monsters I've designed but not released (maybe with a few retreads thrown in where necessary). I've subdivided them into manageable chunks (groups of 35 or so) and I have a few ideas how to turn these into (hopefully) interesting (mini) epic-adventures.

*300-400 or so.

So as you know I always plan big and then deliver small (but hopefully interesting stuff) so I have outlined 4 adventure paths of 3 adventures each. In effect 12 books. Obviously this is currently pie in the sky at this juncture. However, a few things are working in my favour here:

1. 5E is vastly simpler than 3E or even 4E.
2. I have a great artist (who is working on my comic book) ready to do the art (which I think will take him 7-8 weeks...once we get started).
3. Initial 'adventures' will be for Levels 17-20+ (but its still gonna get bonkers don't worry).

So the books would be primarily a Bestiary of high-level monsters with enough of an adventure (using those new monsters) tacked on to make for a cool story and I would throw in a few new rules and ideas along the way. ;)

At this point I have detailed notes on the first 3 adventures and I am musing over which to start with.

Also, Pathfinder 2nd looks like a great mix of D&D 4th (couple of designers worked on both) and D&D 3rd. Much more balanced and interesting than 1st edition in my opinion. But focus on 5th for now ^^

I got to play a lot of 5th recently (thanks S'mon) and I am starting to see how it can work for Epic 17-20 Levels and above. The key is its simplicity and AC/Attack Bonus caps.
 

S'mon

Legend
I got to play a lot of 5th recently (thanks S'mon) and I am starting to see how it can work for Epic 17-20 Levels and above. The key is its simplicity and AC/Attack Bonus caps.

Yeah, you had, what, 8 games in 10 days including the London D&D Meetup? :D I think your level 20 games with the Scylla-Kraken and the Aboleths were pretty representative of how the combat goes, though the Sihedron gives that party a lot of advantages.
 

Rhuarc

Explorer
Hey UK,

everything you have mentioned above sounds great and I wholeheartedly support your attempt at starting smaller and see if you can manage to get things done in a somewhat timely fashion!

I'm still open to the idea of supporting your books with a Kickstarter or Patreon if that would help with enticing you to get your ideas onto 'paper' and pay for artists :)

Also, if you are interested you might want to look at the Epic Legacy Core Rulebook:


Definitely not the perfect epic level implementation, but the guys have some interesting ideas in there.
 


Hey Rhuarc buddy!

everything you have mentioned above sounds great and I wholeheartedly support your attempt at starting smaller and see if you can manage to get things done in a somewhat timely fashion!

I need to keep things in bitesize chunks otherwise my imagination gets the better of me and I veer off into the unknown.

I'm still open to the idea of supporting your books with a Kickstarter or Patreon if that would help with enticing you to get your ideas onto 'paper' and pay for artists :)

Weirdly enough I'm actually okay financially at the moment (as opposed to 15 years ago when I did the Immortal's Handbook Epic Bestiary). I'm paying this artist to draw a 128 page graphic novel. So I have a bit of spare cash floating about to take on multiple projects.

I have considered the Kickstarter/Indiegogo/Crowdfund route (which I'll likely do for my graphic novel when its finished next year) but I don't know if its necessary for these Epic Adventure-Bestiary's. Realistically I could have the whole thing finished within 8 weeks (when started).

I DO want to allow a Print on Demand version (I always prefer a physical copy myself) as well as a pdf. I'd do a print run but I don't see initial numbers being more than a few hundred at best and if its less than 1000 its probably just better going with Print on demand.

If you want to support me I will be opening a t-shirt business in a few months time and I have a handful of cool (I hope), fun ideas for epic/immortal t-shirts in the works.

I may also look into an updated 3.5E Ascension for Print on Demand as well as the Vampire Bestiary trilogy updated for 5th Edition (also for Print on Demand). I looked at the 5E Vampire and its way overpowered and not great in my humble opinion.

Also, if you are interested you might want to look at the Epic Legacy Core Rulebook:


Definitely not the perfect epic level implementation, but the guys have some interesting ideas in there.

I have been meaning to buy this - I just wasn't sure if I wanted to get it before I published my first 5E epic material or after, so that it doesn't colour my own ideas...my thinking at this point is that I personally wouldn't have leveling beyond 20th, but I would have divinity.
 

Rhuarc

Explorer
Hey UK,

Weirdly enough I'm actually okay financially at the moment (as opposed to 15 years ago when I did the Immortal's Handbook Epic Bestiary). I'm paying this artist to draw a 128 page graphic novel. So I have a bit of spare cash floating about to take on multiple projects.

Glad to hear that you are in a better place financially than before and I will surely support you in different ways if you offer something interesting. Looking forward to it!

I have been meaning to buy this - I just wasn't sure if I wanted to get it before I published my first 5E epic material or after, so that it doesn't colour my own ideas...my thinking at this point is that I personally wouldn't have leveling beyond 20th, but I would have divinity.

Yeah, maybe waiting to not be influenced is the right call. All depending on how set your own ideas already are. If they are still in flux, better take a look once you got that sorted out.

And your idea is to go straight from level 20 to godhood (even if it's 'only' Quasi-Deity or Demi-Deity)? That's surprising honestly, but certainly one way of doing this. I'll stick to a higher ceiling for my personal game for now :)
 

Celebrim

Legend
Recently, though, I've become somewhat disillusioned by how it grinds up against significant faults in the d20 system it's built on, in particular the fact that the d20 is only so big of a die and that exponential scaling from size doesn't play well with deity progression.

What you are talking about is inherent to pretty much all game systems, and there isn't a good fix.

Specifically, the sweet spot in a game system tends to be roughly that area in which the PC's bonuses on a task are large enough to somewhat differentiate them from each other, but not so large that either the difference between two PC's bonuses or any one PC's bonus is large in comparison to the range of results permitted by the fortune.

So D20 for example starts to fall apart with the bonuses either get near 20 in size or else the difference between the bonuses of two characters gets close to 20 in size. If you have a +22 to something, then this gets to be a problem. And if you have a +18 in something, and the other person has a +0, then that's also a problem. All of that I gather you understand.

The bad news.... there is no good fix. A couple of false paths you might try:

a) As soon as you said 'division', you've lost your way as a designer. Any mechanic involving division is probably too complex for anything but a video game.

b) You could try using fixed math so that everyone's bonuses in everything continues to go up evenly with the progression in difficulty. But then you run into a problem where the numbers are getting bigger but the gameplay is staying the same so what is the point? See a typical 'Blizzard' Diablo based RPG, including 'World of Warcraft'.

c) You could try rebalancing everything so that now you are playing a new game with a new sweet spot, but you'll lose all granularity prior to this point. Things couldn't interact with each other across scales.

My question is: how do you all handle this in your games - how do you threaten different players with attacks at different times? Surely having only the weakest character or two threatened by enemies while the others are nigh-invulnerable isn't very fun or balanced.

I play for as long as possible in the systems sweet spot, and then when I hit the systems limits I start a new game. Not the answer you want to hear, but one of the more practical ones.

There are actually related unsolvable problems with scale in standard D&D, most easily seen at 1st level. At first level, you have one HD. But D&D has significant problems dealing with the scale of anything smaller than 1HD. Cats, rats, wasps, ants and so forth all have significant and even insurmountable simulation issues owing to the fact that 1 hit point, 1 damage, +1 bonus and so forth are all atomic and indivisible. The smaller the scale the more it becomes impossible to distinguish between things which are, themselves as radically different in scale as the 1st level PC and dragons and whales.
 


Hello again amigo! :)

Glad to hear that you are in a better place financially than before

Yes I'm doing good now thanks. Was flat broke before and that's when I made the mistake of taking the pre-orders for Ascension and the project was just massive and that heaped extra pressure on me and the whole thing suffered.

and I will surely support you in different ways if you offer something interesting. Looking forward to it!

I'll always try to make the stuff interesting and fun. The t-shirt designs I have planned I'm convinced epic gamers will love them. ;-)

Yeah, maybe waiting to not be influenced is the right call. All depending on how set your own ideas already are. If they are still in flux, better take a look once you got that sorted out.

I already know what I want to do with 5E epic/immortals.

And your idea is to go straight from level 20 to godhood (even if it's 'only' Quasi-Deity or Demi-Deity)? That's surprising honestly, but certainly one way of doing this. I'll stick to a higher ceiling for my personal game for now :)

The point is the game needs a ceiling on levels (in my opinion*) so it may as well be Level 20.

*Otherwise you face the same problems that plagued 3E.

Continuing the Levels above 20 is self defeating in that the further from L20 you diverge the more of the existing monster pool you abandon. Additionally the top of your levels (whether you cap at 30, 40 or 50 or whatever) will be completely empty of content.

The current L20 characters need more monsters of CRs 17-40. If you raise the cap to Level 40 then you'll need monsters up to level 60.

How many monsters are in this Epic Legacy book? I couldn't find a detailed review online.
 

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