A Paladin Question

[Leopold]

Your lizard Pal will probably never work with a Tiamat-Worshiper, and might attack them on sight. Maybe trow in a little of that draconic arrogance and aloofness. What kind of dragon, by the way? Gold? Flavor his behavior with whatever is usual with the dragons of his parent's kind.

And remember: When within earshot of an avathar of paladin, never make less-than-deferential comments about scalykind, or you're suddenly 2 foot tall and have red hair and nose!

he's a green dragon cross breed. So his typical draconic aloofness is garunteed. A bit of humility will be in his blood and allot of silence and quietness will be what he does allot. There already is a half-dragon (blue) sorcerer in the party so he might not get along too well with him, but then again he's the only one that can speak draconic and that's what this paladin speaks ONLY....

 

[Sagan Darkside]

or there is an evil far greater and far more sinister than either of them can handle seperately and must work together to solve it...

I thought the ends justifying the means was a CG position- not a paladin one.

I agree with the post that followed the line of detect evil- and then smite/discard accordingly.

SD

 

[Leopold]

So you are aware of the fact that he is being controlled by disreputable individuals (if not plain evil individuals)?

this is an unknown. Noone has established this on the PC in question, assumed, but not proven.

And you are helping him regain his kingdom?

great back story on the both of the PC's and how they intertwined themselves. I commended them both for it. The big retaking of this dwarven citadel will be on the epic scale.

So a LG paladin is helping a friend (who acts against his will since being controlled) to establish a kingdom where evil will reign?

Friend? Well no not really. Ya see the party hired out a bunch of mercs to help free some slaves. In tow they got the cleric of hextor, some dwarves, a bard, a paladin, and a mage/oozemaster. The paladin in question was hired to protect the party and that's where he met the other PC in question.

friends? I dunno, more like boss and worker as the paladin has not been 'formally' drafted into the party from what my players are telling me.

That greater good you two are fighting for better be worth the deal...

to rebuild an ancient nation that was destroyed in a matter of months do to an overwhelming horde that was awakened from the earth causing tens of thousands to tie and thousands to flee? I think that's sufficent enough....

Of course we don't know the whole story (you apparently don't as well, accordnig to your DM ) but the more I hear about it, the less I could imagine your paladin accepting the situation.

Again, I see the lawfulness in all of this. Both are bound to an oath, an honor system, and a pledge of loyalty. Each to their gods, each to their party comrades (or leaders), and to other people. Now the paladin in question has every right to attack and kill and drive off this 'evil' ( i never prevent parties from killing each other, it's their PC's not mine, they are all old enough to know better) but also given him options to explore to see what else can be done. I for one don't see this sacred exorcist class really being useful as the Paladin has always been one for reclaiming the kingdom, uniting the people, and building a glorious society at the right hand of the ruler (other PC). I even tought of having the PC take the paladin as a cohort but thought better of that (very messy roleplaying). In the end PrC's have ALWAYS been needed to have a reason behind it. I will not allow PC's to take PrC's because they are 'uberkewl!' or 'it'll give me a bonus to BAB!'. Reason behind it all, roleplaying or otherwise is required. Maybe i need a bit more convincing....

There is much much going on behind the scenese that both parties don't understand and realize. I can see pro's and con's for both situations (attacking or saving/watching) now it's all fundamentaly upto all the players to figure out what to do about it. They all might not have the complete story and know what is going on in all the PC's (the bard, the cleric, the sorcerer, etc.) but I have faith in my players in they will solve it one of 2 ways:

1. Strongest survive
2. Roleplaying.

 

[Leopold]

I thought the ends justifying the means was a CG position- not a paladin one.

yes it is and there are 3 CG players in the party. 1 advocates killing them, 1 couldn't care less, 1 wouldn't want him dead as he still needs him.

But also think about the part about having the paladin trying to rebuild the other dwarves kingdom and helping rid the world of the enemies of his nation. So far the other PC has not swayed from that honorable path and goal and has maintained that he will continue to pursue that up until it happens.

The paladin still could/can work with the other PC to make that it happens as reclaiming a kingdom and rebuilding it is neither good nor evil act. Both have stated that they are honorbound to do it.

I see that them working together as a long term thing and not a short term goal. Both are more than willing to do what needs to be done within their respective alignments to accomplish it and both will be subsequently and summarily punished if they sway from that. I make alignment changes gradually almost with monte cook's system in BoHM. There is a goal both agreed upon to do and both have not swayed from that overall objective. People and PC's change so it can happen, we don't know when, but it could happen, time will tell...

I agree with the post that followed the line of detect evil- and then smite/discard accordingly.

rather harsh and rash, but still within being a paladin...evil can be saved and reclaimed for the good, who knows, again anyone who has read Sepulchrave II's story hour knows what i am talking about. We shall see what happens in our next session...

 

[Shard O'Glase]

but I have faith in my players in they will solve it one of 2 ways:

1. Strongest survive
2. Roleplaying.

IMO 2 would lead to 1. If you roleplay a paladin guess what they smite evil. A cleric of hextor, with some demonic tempalte will radiate evil so strongly it might just blind the paladin. There really isn't much of a question roleplaying wise what a paladin would do in a situation like this. He'd smite the evil and if he thought he was too weak, he'd recruit some allies and then smite the evil.

I don't care what evil they want to overcome unless the evil can only be stopped by a cleric of hextor, they don't need the cleric.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

The paladin still could/can work with the other PC to make that it happens as reclaiming a kingdom and rebuilding it is neither good nor evil act. Both have stated that they are honorbound to do it.

I see that them working together as a long term thing and not a short term goal.

I don't know. To me- a paladin would not see evil as a lifestyle to be tolerated until it does something wrong. It is a weed that needs to be dealt with when it is found.

Good luck.
SD

 

[Tar-Edhel]

this is an unknown. Noone has established this on the PC in question, assumed, but not proven.

Warning: I am not criticizing your game or the way you run it, just expressing what I would do as a paladin in this game (with the info I have).

My point is that on strong assumptions (and the physical aspect of the Hextorian would be a strong one for me) the paladin should react. Not necessarily in an aggressive manner, mind you.

Friend? Well no not really. Ya see the party hired out a bunch of mercs to help free some slaves. In tow they got the cleric of hextor, some dwarves, a bard, a paladin, and a mage/oozemaster. The paladin in question was hired to protect the party and that's where he met the other PC in question.

friends? I dunno, more like boss and worker as the paladin has not been 'formally' drafted into the party from what my players are telling me.

So there are no sentimental ties between those two, prior to that guy's conversion to the church of Hextor. The paladin shold be even more rigid in his principles. Would you work for a boss that you suspect strongly of being evil??? Would you accept a job where your co-workers would be evil? As a palain, I don't think so.

to rebuild an ancient nation that was destroyed in a matter of months do to an overwhelming horde that was awakened from the earth causing tens of thousands to tie and thousands to flee? I think that's sufficent enough....

The poor sods' souls being already back to their respective gods, it doesn't bring much in terms of goodness.

To rebuild an ancient nation (although a noble act) wouldn't justify my association with a follower of the Herald of Hell (Hextor's titles are worth repeating), especially if the plan is to have the Hextorian lead or have a key role in this nation's governement.

A greater good would be attacking the horde (if it didn't get back to sleep) to avoid that other nations would not fall to their might.

There is much much going on behind the scenese that both parties don't understand and realize. I can see pro's and con's for both situations (attacking or saving/watching) now it's all fundamentaly upto all the players to figure out what to do about it. They all might not have the complete story and know what is going on in all the PC's (the bard, the cleric, the sorcerer, etc.) but I have faith in my players in they will solve it one of 2 ways:

1. Strongest survive
2. Roleplaying.

As long as you let your players decide of their own actions, I'm perfectly ok with the situation. The story sounds complicated, with many twists and I just love a good scenario, even if it could lead to my character's demise, as I think it would be the case if I was the paladin in your group.

 

[Darklone]

Weird situation. As the paladin in this case, I'd withdrew my help for the party and leave them. If they come to ask for help, they'd better be good at explaining what they want. But this whole situation stinks of something that a paladin better leaves alone or observes... from a distance.

Traveling with that guy and risking the reputation of his religion and church is not an option IMHO.

 

[Leopold]

Would you work for a boss that you suspect strongly of being evil??? Would you accept a job where your co-workers would be evil? As a palain, I don't think so.

Yes i would work for an evil boss. See i take LE to be an oprresive alignment but also very livable. Take Facism and Communism and perhaps the Spanish Inquisition to their extermes and they were mostly lawful evil. It's a tough society with not many freedoms but it most certainly has laws and rigid rules to live by. Corporate bosses can sometimes be this as they must follow rules and codes of conduct but are always trying to move up in the chain of command. Out of all the 'evil's' LE is the most 'tolerable' if done in a certain way.

Remember 'evil' does not have to mean baby killer....

As long as you let your players decide of their own actions, I'm perfectly ok with the situation. The story sounds complicated, with many twists and I just love a good scenario, even if it could lead to my character's demise, as I think it would be the case if I was the paladin in your group.

oh they will decide ALL on their own! I will neither force nore decide, nor pull any strings here. It's like court is in session and now we have the judge, jury, and lawyers all arguing their cases while the gods sit in back and watch them go.

And yes the story is very very complicated with many things happening in far reaching terms with what goes on now. It's like the old story where a butterfly flaps it wings in texas and it snows in hong kong. Party deaths by other party members are rare but called for as these were always troubling times and sometimes not everyone can always agree. What happens now affects what happens in the future for things to come. I love making PC's decisions affect other people's lives...the ripple effect...

 

[Crimslain]

I just wanted to clarify to everyone that I have no intention of helping my old friend gain back a kingdom now that he has gone down this path unless he repents. I refuse to do so and am afraid that it might just lead to one less in the party, but only I will leave by death , as it is better to die in battle than somewhere else.