D&D 5E A problem with legendary actions

[Oofta]

To be completely honest, a dragon that only breathes and flies away to recharge its breath is pretty boring to me, and why, as a DM, I use the "dragon's cave" trope to try and limit this otherwise incredibly effective strategy.

Possibly, but I play monsters with tactics I think make sense for them. And, in addition, I wouldn't just fly away and wait for my breath weapon to attack. It would be more "fly away and then come back to attack the guy who's trying to hide in the back".

I sometimes set up multiple goals for the party when doing any encounter - but I'm even more likely to do so for a dragon fight. Maybe the PCs are just trying to escape, or they're trying to get the McGuffin to the the Circle of Importance, or some other goal. The dragon will vary their behavior as well depending on what's happening.

Completely agree on the lair actions though. There's great potential for fun in them.

So if this were a black dragon encounter, the lair actions would be used to divide and harass the party and in particular anyone with a concentration spell up. So pull the wizard away from everyone else with a surge of water and then attack them when they're prone. In that case the dragon would attack, tail slap the wizard and then when someone came to the rescue wing buffet and try to get away.

Whether that tactic works or not is a whole other issue. What would be boring to me would be to run a dragon (particularly an adult or older) as just a big bag of hit points with the occasional breath weapon. There are other monsters for that kind of encounter.

 

[Oofta]

And if they're not in their lair? Why do all dragons have the same stock Legendary Actions? A bit of differentiation would be nice and add more flavor to all encounters, not just those involving a lair.

If you think it's an issue, customize your monster. I don't have a problem with dragons having a core schtick, but I've also had bardic dragons that lure people to their doom, sorcerer dragons and druidic dragons that wanted to destroy the local population encroaching on "their" forest.

 

[Olrox17]

Possibly, but I play monsters with tactics I think make sense for them. And, in addition, I wouldn't just fly away and wait for my breath weapon to attack. It would be more "fly away and then come back to attack the guy who's trying to hide in the back".

I sometimes set up multiple goals for the party when doing any encounter - but I'm even more likely to do so for a dragon fight. Maybe the PCs are just trying to escape, or they're trying to get the McGuffin to the the Circle of Importance, or some other goal. The dragon will vary their behavior as well depending on what's happening.

So if this were a black dragon encounter, the lair actions would be used to divide and harass the party and in particular anyone with a concentration spell up. So pull the wizard away from everyone else with a surge of water and then attack them when they're prone. In that case the dragon would attack, tail slap the wizard and then when someone came to the rescue wing buffet and try to get away.

Whether that tactic works or not is a whole other issue. What would be boring to me would be to run a dragon (particularly an adult or older) as just a big bag of hit points with the occasional breath weapon. There are other monsters for that kind of encounter.

Trust me, I totally get the desire to make dragon fights feel special, it's the reason that inspired me to open this thread looking for advice. But I also don't want to frustrate my players (and I'm pretty sure that an hit & run dragon would do just that) and make ranged combat even more essential than it already is.
I know I might be gimping my dragons by putting them in big but not limitless caves, but you know, I feel like I must do that to make the encounter fun. Flip side, the dragon gets lair actions while in its, well, lair.

Any opinion on the alternate dragon legendary actions I posted a few posts back?

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6801397]Olrox17[/MENTION] The alternative Legendary Actions you posted were fine, but I see them falling into the same trap as the original Monster Manual design. The problem is conceptual... see the description for Legendary Monsters in the MM:

LEGENDARY CREATURES
A legendary creature can do things that ordinary creatures can't. Legendary creatures can take special actions outside their turns, and a few can exert power over their environment, causing extraordinary magical effects to occur in their vicinity.

The definition is divorced from any kind of meaningful narrative about WHY it's considered legendary by other creatures/societies in the game world. Instead it's a flimsy excuse to try and power-up a monster so it can fight a party of PCs solo.

Is "detects a hidden creature" or "wing buffets" or "tail slaps" something that evokes this monster's legend? Does it make me as a player notice that this monster is totally something different? Does it let me use the legends I learned in town about the monster to anticipate/prepare for its Legendary Actions better?

If, for example, a legend were to be told about a dragon's "wing buffet" by the lone surviving knight, what might that look like? "The old wyrm bowled over ninety armed men and their warhorses with one clap of its wings, stripping many of their spears and shields, streaking into the sky like winged death..."

OK, there's the legend, now design from there. At least, that's how I do it when writing my own.

 

[Rossbert]

It isn't that the action taken is legendary, the creature is legendary and so they get extra (possibly mundane) actions to reinforce how awe-strikingly powerful they are compared to the little people

 

[Satyrn]

I've made an alternative list of dragon legendary actions, trying to remain close to the RAW version but with the intent to solve my problem with "gamey" legendary actions. Would you like this alternate dragon actions if they were presented to you, as a player, in a campaign?


LEGENDARY ACTIONS
The dragon can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The dragon regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.


Detect. The dragon carefully watches the creature that just ended its turn. If the dragon can’t see the creature, it makes a Wisdom (Perception) check to find it. Until the end of the watched creature’s next turn, any attack roll the creature makes against the dragon has disadvantage if the dragon can see it, and the dragon makes Dexterity saving throws against the creature with advantage. The dragon loses this benefit if it is incapacitated or if its speed drops to 0.

Tail Sweep. The dragon makes a tail attack against the creature that just ended its turn. On a hit, the target is also knocked prone, unless it succeeds on a DC x Strength saving throw. On a miss, the target still takes half damage from the tail attack, unless it succeeds on a DC x Dexterity saving throw.

Wing Attack (2 actions). The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 10 feet of the dragon must succeed on a DC x Dexterity saving throw or take x bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. The dragon can then fly up to half its flying speed.

Your changes make sense, although from my DM-perspective I find them completely unnecessary because I can already run the dragon that way. As a DM I'm gonna run my monsters how I want them to act, and I don't need or want rules mechanics to close off options (like using a tail attack against someone other than the PC that just took a turn) I'm not gonna use anyway.

From my player-perspective, I find it just as unnecessary because the DM's gonna DM, and what's written anywhere is just a suggestion anyway.

So, while your idea makes complete sense, I think you could make it better by turning it into advice about running legendary actions in general, something like "try to make the legendary action relevant to what is going on with the PC who triggered the legendary action."

That's what you're really going for, right?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Let's take the most iconic of legendary creatures, the dragon, as an example. In my gaming experience, once a dragon has used its breath weapon, it'll usually position itself near a squishy target. Then, unless the dragon is given a very good reason to use detect or wing attack, it'll use its legendary tail attack, over and over, against the same target.

When I was running a high-level game with a lot of Empyreans in it, I just had them take all four attacks on their turn. They was no reason to use any of their other legendary options, and it was much faster to resolve.

Why would you not use Wing Attack?

Wing Attack has no effect if they make their save, and thus it has no effect against PCs.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Wing Attack has no effect if they make their save, and thus it has no effect against PCs.

Not sure if I understand. Are you saying that all PCs can make a DC 22 Dex save vs an Adult Red Dragon's Wing Attack at will? Not in my experience.

 

[GameOgre]

Trust me, I totally get the desire to make dragon fights feel special, it's the reason that inspired me to open this thread looking for advice. But I also don't want to frustrate my players (and I'm pretty sure that an hit & run dragon would do just that) and make ranged combat even more essential than it already is.
I know I might be gimping my dragons by putting them in big but not limitless caves, but you know, I feel like I must do that to make the encounter fun. Flip side, the dragon gets lair actions while in its, well, lair.

Any opinion on the alternate dragon legendary actions I posted a few posts back?

While I agree the game is about fun......monsters should behave true to themselves regardless of how it effects the pc's ...at least in my opinion.

Bearding a Dragon in it's den is indeed a great tactic and one Dragons would seek to avoid. I would reward great game play and tactics by having it take place not by default start there.

Honestly I think my players enjoy that aspect of the game. The more real the monsters are the more real the heroics are.....maybe?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

It just seemed to be a way to give big foes more ability to actually battle the group since they would otherwise pretty much be a joke. IMO. My big mistake was not giving them more of them. I think CappZapp recommended giving them one for each party member, and that would have made a lot of the combats a lot more interesting I think.

They only fought one dragon and it wasn't old enough to have any LA so for the most part it was Beholders and Demon Princes using them in my last game.