D&D 5E A problem with legendary actions

[dave2008]

I like the concept of legendary actions, and how they allow a legendary monster to better square off against a group of opponents. I do however, dislike how they often end up working in practice.

Gamey because, well, why the heck is Timmy the bard getting tail whipped after Sammy the cleric has cast a spell, then again after Bob the archer has fired its bow, then again after Morty the wizard has made its death saving throw? Where's the in-game world connection?

Dragon are a bad example IMO. Which is bad for such an iconic creature. There are other legendary creatures that have better legendary actions. For dragons, i also don't like the idea if it swinging its tail 3x so I revised them. The key, to me, is to have interesting things to do and to have choices. My fix was to give dragons gargantuan damage (4d10 bite, 4d8 tail, 4d6 claw/wing) and make the tail attack cost 2 actions (+ a save or be stunned for 1 turn). I then gave it one of its lair actions as a legendary action. These changes don't change its CR, but give it interesting options. It makes a tail or wing attack a choice dependent on the situation. It also feels more realistic to have a claw/claw/bite/tail (or wing) attack versus the claw/claw/bite/tail/tail/tail attack by RAW

Am I the only one that feels this way? I'd much prefer if legendary action attacks could only be used against the character that just ended its turn, the character that "triggered" the legendary attack, so to speak.

Then run them that way. The whole point of 5e is DM flexibility. I like that I can do other things if I want, but completely get that they are a type of reaction as well. I am quite glad that they are not restricted to reactions only.

 

[dave2008]

YMMV, of course. In my experience, most saving throws made by a high-level party will be successful. With all of the different ways to gain advantage, a Paladin aura granting +5 to all saves for everyone, and bless adding +1d4 to help normalize the probability distribution; yeah, an AoE save-for-none against the group will average significantly less damage than just attacking twice.

The other possibility is that it will affect one PC, who will be knocked down, and who will stand up again before the dragon's next turn.

Of course my group has neither a paladin or access to the bless spell.

 

[dave2008]

If you actually change the rule, then it's not the case that the dragon is an idiot or the GM is meta-gaming; it's just the case that the world doesn't work that way, and the dragon couldn't effectively focus fire even if it wanted to.

Disagree, that would still make the dragon an idiot.

 

[Satyrn]

From the perspective of game systems that try to reflect how a world actually works, it makes sense to codify actual rules rather than just giving suggestions.

That would make sense, agreed.

I don't view 5e that way though, so I'm fine with just getting suggestions. But I hope you notice I didn't push for my view once Olrox said (paraphrasing) "neat, but I'd rather a rule."

 

[jasper]

Legendary tremorsense plus. Give to all dragons. Start at 100 feet and increase the range. If a pc enters the tremorsense, the dragon makes a perception check vs the pc stealth check.
Legendary My head can fits so I sits. Dragons can pass thru terrain as small as its head. This would change lairs.
...
Jasper, hey this tunnel just open up to 10 feet.
Master Morrus, good. Why do I smell sulfur?
Jasper, Hey it only goes 60 and the size is mumble mumble.
Master Morrus, did say the width was 8 feet 9 inches or 9 feet 8 inches.
jasper, 9 feet.
Master, Run away it not an adult dragon but an ancient dragon.
Dragon breaths breath weapon down the tunnel. "Ring Ring. Hello Dave's Dungeon Cleaners. I need an one hour tunnel cleaning. Contract # 666. Map grids b4 - b6. Thanks. "

 

[Olrox17]

Following much of the advice you guys have given me, I've made a stat block for an adult green dragon. I'll post it here. Opinions, suggestions, and criticism are welcome.

 

[Olrox17]

I was thinking of adding this last legendary action to the dragon above.

Mind Poison (3 actions). The dragon exhales a puff of noxious gas towards a creature within 10 feet of it that just ended its turn. The creature must succeed on a DC 18 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, it is poisoned and takes 28 (8d6) poison damage. On a successful save, the creature isn’t affected.
A poisoned creature must make a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. If it successfully saves three times, the effect ends. If it fails its saves three times, the creature is no longer poisoned, but it’s now charmed by the dragon instead. Only a remove curse, greater restoration, other curse removing effects, or the death of the dragon itself can remove the charmed condition from the creature.

Too weak, too powerful? Thoughts?

 

[Tanin Wulf]

Is "detects a hidden creature" or "wing buffets" or "tail slaps" something that evokes this monster's legend? Does it make me as a player notice that this monster is totally something different? Does it let me use the legends I learned in town about the monster to anticipate/prepare for its Legendary Actions better?

Hobbit, Chapter 12: Smaug smelling Bilbo and looking for the hidden thief. That's something I'd lean on, somehow, in setting to evoke a monster's detect ability. (I agree with the rest of your points on legendary actions.)

 

[Psikerlord#]

Why not just give the dragon an attack in between every PC turn? Why do they need to cost action points, or whatever?

If the GM wants to spread the attacks around the party, fair enough. If the dragon wants to focus fire the warrior/mage/cleric whoever, also fair enough imo.

 

[Olrox17]

Why not just give the dragon an attack in between every PC turn? Why do they need to cost action points, or whatever?

If the GM wants to spread the attacks around the party, fair enough. If the dragon wants to focus fire the warrior/mage/cleric whoever, also fair enough imo.

They need to cost legendary actions if you want some legendary options to be better than others. Like wing attack compared to the tail slap. the first includes free movement, so it costs 2 actions.

As for your second point, I'll repeat what I said before.

Focus fire is a smart strategy, dragons are smart, and I don't have a problem with monster fighting optimally, but I find this relatively common scenario to be very unappealing and gamey.

Unappealing, because a dragon tail whipping a guy multiple times in rapid succession, round after round, does not scream "epic" or "dragon-ey" to me.

Gamey because, well, why the heck is Timmy the bard getting tail whipped after Sammy the cleric has cast a spell, then again after Bob the archer has fired its bow, then again after Morty the wizard has made its death saving throw? Where's the in-game world connection?

I'd much prefer if legendary action attacks could only be used against the character that just ended its turn, the character that "triggered" the legendary attack, so to speak.