D&D 5E A problem with legendary actions

[The Crimson Binome]

Not sure if I understand. Are you saying that all PCs can make a DC 22 Dex save vs an Adult Red Dragon's Wing Attack at will? Not in my experience.

YMMV, of course. In my experience, most saving throws made by a high-level party will be successful. With all of the different ways to gain advantage, a Paladin aura granting +5 to all saves for everyone, and bless adding +1d4 to help normalize the probability distribution; yeah, an AoE save-for-none against the group will average significantly less damage than just attacking twice.

The other possibility is that it will affect one PC, who will be knocked down, and who will stand up again before the dragon's next turn.

 

[Quickleaf]

It isn't that the action taken is legendary, the creature is legendary and so they get extra (possibly mundane) actions to reinforce how awe-strikingly powerful they are compared to the little people

While I get what you're saying, but I'd assert that there should be a dialogue between the narrative legends of a monster and how that plays out with its abilities.

For example, if you ask "what provokes legends about this dragon?" and then look to its Legendary Actions...

"It slapped three knights with its tail!" Um, OK, that's cool, but if I'm a bard I'm probably not going to make that the highlight of the monster when I tell a tale about it at the tavern.

"It spotted the party burglar hiding in the shadows." Ok, and so could a lot of monsters.

"It beat its wings, scattering a small force of 16 men and then took off into the sky...but all the knocked down men got to stab at it with their spears before it took flight." Wow, so that's pretty cool! I could probably tell a legend about that, if I edited out that last bit.

As an aside, I tracked down the origins of the Legendary Creature in D&D because I was curious if the current incarnation had left anything out. There were 2 sources: The AD&D High-Level Campaigns book (with a rather mediocre treatment focused on selecting traits/abilities from an uninspired list) & the AD&D Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix 2 (which is simpler but much more evocative in terms of story, and emphasizes extraordinary defenses straight out of Greek myth). http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-Planescape-Origin-of-Legendary-Solo-Monsters

 

[Eltab]

Based on my maybe-limited experience (attacking Arauthator in his lair, Rise of Tiamat), pick from this list. By design, the list is too long to do everything in the course of one round

- Launch. The dragon gets a chance to break any grapples &c and move 10 feet straight up.
- Wing attack to damage a small AoE
- Tail attack with reach to deal with ground-pounders and melee artists.
- Short move with a single-target attack included. Could be described as a Pounce
- Claws attack: crash down on somebody with the full weight and forward motion of the dragon. Dragon ends this action on the ground upright. Target might be Grappled or Restrained or some other status condition
- Pure move Fly
- Pure move Walk
- Pure move Walk with benefit of Disengage action for this movement only
- "Hiccup": single-target breath weapon at short range. Also knocks the target prone. Cannot use if recharging Breath Weapon, but does not count as a use of Breath Weapon once it is recharged
- Cast a self-buff spell (have a short list: Bless, Cure Wounds, Invisibility would be useful)
- Cast a cantrip (again have a short list) Properly fluffed, this dragon might seem to never be short of Breath Weapon
- Use Equipment. For instance, pull a lever, drop caltrops, splash a flask of oil on the floor. No direct attacks but you can see the set-up for the Attack Action on his turn

 

[Rossbert]

While I get what you're saying, but I'd assert that there should be a dialogue between the narrative legends of a monster and how that plays out with its abilities.

For example, if you ask "what provokes legends about this dragon?" and then look to its Legendary Actions...

"It slapped three knights with its tail!" Um, OK, that's cool, but if I'm a bard I'm probably not going to make that the highlight of the monster when I tell a tale about it at the tavern.

"It spotted the party burglar hiding in the shadows." Ok, and so could a lot of monsters.

"It beat its wings, scattering a small force of 16 men and then took off into the sky...but all the knocked down men got to stab at it with their spears before it took flight." Wow, so that's pretty cool! I could probably tell a legend about that, if I edited out that last bit.

As an aside, I tracked down the origins of the Legendary Creature in D&D because I was curious if the current incarnation had left anything out. There were 2 sources: The AD&D High-Level Campaigns book (with a rather mediocre treatment focused on selecting traits/abilities from an uninspired list) & the AD&D Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix 2 (which is simpler but much more evocative in terms of story, and emphasizes extraordinary defenses straight out of Greek myth). http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-Planescape-Origin-of-Legendary-Solo-Monsters

It is more so that it can then use its actions for the "legendary" stuff. It can just do the cool stuff since it shouldn't need to do a tail sweep or such on its turn ever now. The legend is about the breath, the spells and the hide. The extra actions are so they can still attack with their natural weapons as they should without having to not do the cool stuff.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I really like the concept of legendary actions and what they do for an enemy. I do agree that some of them are a bit lackluster though. So I either come up with new ones ahead of time, or alter the existing ones (like a tail sweep rather than tail slap, which can hit multiple PCs and force a save or be pushed, etc.).

I also don’t hesitate to treat the existing ones as a template to create another legendary action on the fly depending on how the game goes. I fond this to be a lot of fun, as it makes the monster seem very capable and is tailored to the encounter.

As an example, I had a dragon snatch a flying foe with his bite and then fling him to the earth. So I had the dragon do bite damage then made the PC make a Con save for half damage upon hitting the ground (I used tail slap damage, save for half). The PC was left prone even if he made the save.

I just use what’s in the book as inspiration and then try to make the creature do some really cool and surprising things.

 

[Olrox17]

Your changes make sense, although from my DM-perspective I find them completely unnecessary because I can already run the dragon that way. As a DM I'm gonna run my monsters how I want them to act, and I don't need or want rules mechanics to close off options (like using a tail attack against someone other than the PC that just took a turn) I'm not gonna use anyway.

From my player-perspective, I find it just as unnecessary because the DM's gonna DM, and what's written anywhere is just a suggestion anyway.

So, while your idea makes complete sense, I think you could make it better by turning it into advice about running legendary actions in general, something like "try to make the legendary action relevant to what is going on with the PC who triggered the legendary action."

That's what you're really going for, right?

Yeah, my intention is exactly what you figured. And yes, I suppose I could just avoid using legendary actions in a way that I find unpalatable, no mechanical change needed. I enjoy tinkering with game mechanics though! Fnding a mechanical way to better represent my view of the game world is some of the most fun I have as a DM.

It just seemed to be a way to give big foes more ability to actually battle the group since they would otherwise pretty much be a joke. IMO. My big mistake was not giving them more of them. I think CappZapp recommended giving them one for each party member, and that would have made a lot of the combats a lot more interesting I think.

They only fought one dragon and it wasn't old enough to have any LA so for the most part it was Beholders and Demon Princes using them in my last game.

You know what, I like CappZapp’s idea. I might steal that one.

I really like the concept of legendary actions and what they do for an enemy. I do agree that some of them are a bit lackluster though. So I either come up with new ones ahead of time, or alter the existing ones (like a tail sweep rather than tail slap, which can hit multiple PCs and force a save or be pushed, etc.).

I also don’t hesitate to treat the existing ones as a template to create another legendary action on the fly depending on how the game goes. I fond this to be a lot of fun, as it makes the monster seem very capable and is tailored to the encounter.

As an example, I had a dragon snatch a flying foe with his bite and then fling him to the earth. So I had the dragon do bite damage then made the PC make a Con save for half damage upon hitting the ground (I used tail slap damage, save for half). The PC was left prone even if he made the save.

I just use what’s in the book as inspiration and then try to make the creature do some really cool and surprising things.

Creativity for the win. Can’t disagree there!

 

[Sunseeker]

I changed Legendary Action to allow the dragon to use any of its attack routine. Of course, I also added Wings and Tail to its Multiattack...and changed how the damage dice scale up. Yeah I generally overhauled dragons.
Here's a breakdown:
Dragons:
Wyrmling: +1 Wizard/Sorcerer Cantrip, everything else same
Young: +5 Sorcerer Caster Levels, everything else same

Adult: +10 Sorcerer Caster Levels, Bite: 3d10, Claw: 3d6, Tail: 3d8 (rear only), Wing: 3d6, Multiattack: Bite, Claw/Claw, Wing, Tail (at a rear target only); can use any attack other than its breath with its Legendary Action.

Ancient: +15 Sorcerer Caster Levels, Bite: 4d10, Claw: 4d6, Tail: 4d8 (rear only), Wing: 4d6, Multiattack: Bite, Claw/Claw, Wing, Tail (at a rear target only), Breath (if recharged); can use any attack other than its breath with its Legendary Action.

Legendary (custom category): Colossal, +20 Sorcerer Caster Levels, +20 levels in one other class. Bite: 6d10, Claw: 6d6, Tail: 6d8 (rear only), Wing: 6d6, Multiattack: Bite, Claw/Claw, Wing, Tail (at a rear target only), Breath (if recharged). Mobile Lair: ~120ft around the Dragon is always considered its lair and capable of generating lair effects. 5 Legendary Actions, 5 Legendary Resistances. Along with some other custom features as necessary to generate the right "vibe" for the dragon, this is typically a category for "Important Named NPC Dragons" only.

 

[Volund]

There is a Matt Colville video that is on point for this thread. Check out Running the Game #27

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So, while your idea makes complete sense, I think you could make it better by turning it into advice about running legendary actions in general, something like "try to make the legendary action relevant to what is going on with the PC who triggered the legendary action."

From the perspective of game systems that try to reflect how a world actually works, it makes sense to codify actual rules rather than just giving suggestions.

From my perspective, as a player, if a legendary dragon always attacks the last person that attacked it, then the only explanation is that it is a legendary idiot who still doesn't understand the concept of focused fire. It could have decided to attack one person until they stopped moving, but decided not to. Either it's bad at making decisions, or the GM is meta-gaming that they think it would be more fun for the players if the dragon behaved illogically.

If you actually change the rule, then it's not the case that the dragon is an idiot or the GM is meta-gaming; it's just the case that the world doesn't work that way, and the dragon couldn't effectively focus fire even if it wanted to.

 

[Olrox17]

There is a Matt Colville video that is on point for this thread. Check out Running the Game #27

About 3 minutes in, I started to think hey, this stuff sounds awfully familiar...is he talking about a 4e dragon? Turns out he was! And it's good advice, because 4e dragons are very interesting and distinct. I still remember my player's reaction when they discovered the white dragon's 17-20 critical range...good times.

From the perspective of game systems that try to reflect how a world actually works, it makes sense to codify actual rules rather than just giving suggestions.

From my perspective, as a player, if a legendary dragon always attacks the last person that attacked it, then the only explanation is that it is a legendary idiot who still doesn't understand the concept of focused fire. It could have decided to attack one person until they stopped moving, but decided not to. Either it's bad at making decisions, or the GM is meta-gaming that they think it would be more fun for the players if the dragon behaved illogically.

If you actually change the rule, then it's not the case that the dragon is an idiot or the GM is meta-gaming; it's just the case that the world doesn't work that way, and the dragon couldn't effectively focus fire even if it wanted to.

In a nutshell, this. This is why I took the mechanical approach rather than just stop dragons form going into super tail-whip mode. I want that to be impossible, not an option, but I also wanted to compensate the poor dragons for taking away that option and give them something cool in return.

What I'm learning from this thread up to this point:

- Giving a dragon 1 legendary action for each opponent it's facing is a good idea. I feel that this, coupled the modified dragon legendary actions I posted before, could give the "dragon experience" I was looking for;
- Giving each individual critter some unique, fun stuff to do is great, and many of you brought good examples;
- Related to the previous point: stealing fun stuff from 4e is A-OK.