D&D General A puzzle about spell casting in D&D

[Lanefan]

That's why there were saving throws - the archer has to roll to hit, the spell victim makes a save. If you make a spellcaster roll to hit then to even things out you'd have to give victims of arrows and weapon blows a saving throw to mitigate the damage too. In older editions, if the spellcaster was required to hit, their THAC0 would cause most attacks to miss.

Good point. When I ask a caster to roll for aim I'm not using their usual to-hit matrix; all I want is a general idea of: did the spell go where wanted, close to where wanted, vaguely where wanted, or some random place in the neighbourhood. Unless the situation dictates otherwise, aiming a spell is usually pretty easy - but, unlike RAW, it's not guaranteed.

Anyways, when it comes to spells like Fireball and such, it's like hand grenades - "close" is enough.

In some situations, yes. In others, "close enough" just means some of your friends get fried along with the foes.

 

[Mannahnin]

...this; and now you're on to it! There should be an aiming roll just like any other ranged attack. (and note they can also miss a bit left, right, up or down; rather than just long or short)

There IMO should also be a small risk (1/d20 maybe, if under duress) of missing everything e.g. your lightning bolt sails over everyone's heads, or even of fumbling with an aimed spell (best spell fumble ever: caster wearing a fireproof cloak casts fireball, fumbles, fireball goes off inside cloak...)

Given limited spell slots I'm not too keen on the idea of missing entirely with a spell, but if you use the targeting roll concept I've been experimenting with, it could certainly happen if you're trying to clip one foe with a Fireball and he's 5' away from your friends.

My first stab at a system was something like- nominate the grid intersection where you WANT the fireball to center on. Roll a d6. 2-5, right on target. 1, your distance estimate was short and it's centered 5' closer to you than intended. 2, estimate was long and center is 5' further away than intended.

 

[Lanefan]

Given limited spell slots I'm not too keen on the idea of missing entirely with a spell, but if you use the targeting roll concept I've been experimenting with, it could certainly happen if you're trying to clip one foe with a Fireball and he's 5' away from your friends.

My first stab at a system was something like- nominate the grid intersection where you WANT the fireball to center on. Roll a d6. 2-5, right on target. 1, your distance estimate was short and it's centered 5' closer to you than intended. 2, estimate was long and center is 5' further away than intended.

That's a start. Me, I use a d20; if the aim doesn't need to be fine-tuned (e.g. a fireball into open space with nothing but enemies in the area) than usually anything over about 5 is enough to pretty much put it right where you want. Lower than this, down to and including 2, means you missed by a bit and either I or the player will roll a d8 for direction. On a 1, things can get interesting - maybe the fireball bead wrecked on some obstacle en route, or the lightning bolt didn't bounce* quite like you expected, or you flat-out misjudged the distance; but most often it means you either missed completely or had only very limited effect e.g. you somehow only hit 2 enemies where the chance was there to hit 15. On a confirmed fumble, all bets are off: you might have hit yourself and-or allies, or hit something else you didn't want to hit e.g. the supports holding the roof up, stuff like that.

If you're trying to fine-tune it in any way e.g. put the fireball bead through a small opening or start the lightning bolt at the front line such as to miss your allies but hit the enemies, then the roll gets more difficult on a case-by-case basis. Ditto for spells being cast into an area you can't see, either due to vision impairment or because the target area is behind an obstruction (some non-damage AoE spells can be cast behind obstructions).

And it's not just damage spells. Other area-effect spells e.g. Sleep, Dispel Magic**, etc. also need aiming rolls to put the area where you want.

* - yes, they bounce in my game.
** - Dispel Magic tries to affect everything in its area, none of this single-target nannying here; which means you really don't want to hit your friends with it!

 

[billd91]

I don't remember seeing anything in the 4e rules regarding having to aim a fireball or lightning bolt; though if this came in after the initial round of DMG-PH-MM releases I'd have missed it as those were the only 4e rulebooks I bought.

Instead of the target rolling a saving throw, the caster rolls to hit vs their Reflex defense. It's the same basic idea though. There's no check for failure to cast successfully anything - it's just the same basic check for the effect, but taken by the other side.

 

[Lanefan]

Instead of the target rolling a saving throw, the caster rolls to hit vs their Reflex defense. It's the same basic idea though. There's no check for failure to cast successfully anything - it's just the same basic check for the effect, but taken by the other side.

Ah, but this just replaces the saving throw and is not the same as what I'm thinking: an aiming roll to see if you in fact put the spell where you wanted it to go.

Example: a room has six Orcs in it. You want to hit as many as you can with a lightning bolt; and a perfect shot will get 'em all. You-as-player (somewhat emulating what your PC is doing in the setting) use the grid to line up your best shot and by RAW you automatically get it. They all have to make saves (or equivalent). You can't miss.

I'm saying this is wrong: sure you (and your PC) can try to line up your best shot, but there needs to be some sort of roll to see if you can pull it off. Do you manage to hit all six, or do you only get four, or do you get unlucky and only hit one and maybe clip a friend as well? Put another way, how many of the Orcs even need to make saves?

 

[Gadget]

What the OP conveniently overlooks in the comparison and question posed is that Picking Pockets (or locks, or other pseudo-skill check) does not require the user to prepare a certain number of attempts of increasing potency in "slots" that are used up and cannot be regained until the next day (if MU even has time to prepare spells the next day that is). Even warriors with attacks had no such limitations.

Moreover, though my 1e days are far behind me, spell casters still had to roll to hit on some spells (or was this introduced in later additions) or targets got a Saving Throw to resist or elude the effects of a spell. Not to mention the much more harsh interruption rules 1e had as well. There were many limitations on 1e spell casting that have largely gone by the wayside as the editions flowed.

 

[Mannahnin]

Lanefan, I think you'll appreciate these.

Fireball Conclusions

Math, history, and design of old-school D&D.

deltasdnd.blogspot.com

Spells Through the Ages – Fireball

Math, history, and design of old-school D&D.

deltasdnd.blogspot.com

Spells Through the Ages – Lightning Bolt

Math, history, and design of old-school D&D.

deltasdnd.blogspot.com

 

[Nebulous]

One thing I started toying with in the last 5E game I was running was having casters for offensive area effect spells roll a targeting check to see if it lands exactly where they want or not (perhaps a bit long or short). This creates more excitement with Fireballs, for example, and makes them act a bit less like laser-guided munitions which can be dropped into a melee and run no risk of hitting friendlies. Initial results had some promise, but you've got to be restrained with this sort of thing.

Neat idea! How do you do it? I know it is only a simulationist game at the end of the day, but it's quite annoying when in the heat of a huge fight the players are counting squares to the enemy, placing spell centers with laser precision. I doubt I would implement a system to discourage that as my players would really complain, and to be fair, enemy spellcasters can do it too.

 

[Mannahnin]

Neat idea! How do you do it? I know it is only a simulationist game at the end of the day, but it's quite annoying when in the heat of a huge fight the players are counting squares to the enemy, placing spell centers with laser precision. I doubt I would implement a system to discourage that as my players would really complain, and to be fair, enemy spellcasters can do it too.

My first stab at a system was something like- nominate the grid intersection where you WANT the fireball to center on. Roll a d6. 2-5, right on target. 1, your distance estimate was short and it's centered 5' closer to you than intended. 2, estimate was long and center is 5' further away than intended.

Fireball is strong in 5E, and you can compensate for "drift" with big or tall opponents, so I didn't get too much grumbling from the sorcerer's player.

 

[Mannahnin]

That's a start. Me, I use a d20; if the aim doesn't need to be fine-tuned (e.g. a fireball into open space with nothing but enemies in the area) than usually anything over about 5 is enough to pretty much put it right where you want. Lower than this, down to and including 2, means you missed by a bit and either I or the player will roll a d8 for direction. On a 1, things can get interesting - maybe the fireball bead wrecked on some obstacle en route, or the lightning bolt didn't bounce* quite like you expected, or you flat-out misjudged the distance; but most often it means you either missed completely or had only very limited effect e.g. you somehow only hit 2 enemies where the chance was there to hit 15. On a confirmed fumble, all bets are off: you might have hit yourself and-or allies, or hit something else you didn't want to hit e.g. the supports holding the roof up, stuff like that.

If you're trying to fine-tune it in any way e.g. put the fireball bead through a small opening or start the lightning bolt at the front line such as to miss your allies but hit the enemies, then the roll gets more difficult on a case-by-case basis. Ditto for spells being cast into an area you can't see, either due to vision impairment or because the target area is behind an obstruction (some non-damage AoE spells can be cast behind obstructions).

I can see exactly what you're getting at, but this is a bit more complex than I'd want for my table. I don't want to slow resolution more than minimally.

However, an easy tweak to my rule would be to state that the exact "drift" direction defaults to short/long, but if there's something you DON'T want to hit adjacent to any of the desired targets, the targeting roll is instead 1, TOWARD the thing you don't want to hit, 2, AWAY from the thing you don't want to hit, as you overcompensate.