A question for PCGen users

[Mynex]

While I don't agree with tburdett, I think you've got this one wrong. I haven't the slightest idea how to go about creating my own LST file, and from what I've gleaned, it's a non-trivial task that requires a significant investment of time, effort and research. All of which defeat the purpose of using PCGen, for me. Saying that I can create it on my own is like saying that I can write my own copy of Unreal Tournament 2003...it's possible, but not likely and not a simple task.

That said, I think tburdett is about as far off base as can be. It took PCgen over a year and a half to become usable for me...but I like it quite a bit, now. WOTC has already committed to OGL'ing a lot of material, soon. Moreover, it was my impression that many d20 publishers LIKED being in PCGen, and some even submitted their own LST files to the PCGen team for inclusion. WOTC is the only company with any issues about it. Judging by comments from the PCGen team, WOTC is dealing in good faith, taking steps they don't need to unless they are intent on continuing to do so, and trying to get their act together. Considering that they company has had three rounds of layoffs in as many years, I think it's amazing they've been able to keep it together as much as they have.

Right now it's difficult without a steep learning curve to enter your own list files yes, hoever, the 1st of the list editors is in place (the Deity Editor) and it's just the 1st step to having editors for all the types of list files. They're coming, they'll make life easier for all, and just be patient.

As to the little trolling post above, he's way off base. D20 is around to stay and there's a TON of material out there that rocks... hell, go look in the publishers forum just to get an idea... there's a lot of talent out there making great products (Book of the Rightseous, Monsternomicon, & Oathbound to name my current favorite 3!)...

True, if Wizards and we can not reach an agreement about the non D20 books, then people that play Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Call of Cthulhu, The Realms, and use ONLY Wizards materials will have to make their own list files or find another product to use... but I beg you to point out another product that has these files, and can implement them correctly.

Oh wait, there isn't one. So I suppose you (the Troller) should hope that we do reach an agreement with Wizards, eh?

On that note, nothing to update, we're still negotiating with Wizards, it is a slow process, as they are a large company and large companies always take their time, but things are still going on.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Give WotC a chance.

I think some of you are being awfully harsh towards WotC. The wheels of a corporation turn slowly - much more slowly than we might like - but they do turn.

If WotC says they are committed to OGC'ing additional titles (e.g., the "splatbooks"), then I believe them. However, it is not the case that someone snaps his fingers and it's done. There will have to be meetings, meetings, and more meetings. Lawyers will have to look at everything. Sales will be affected, so the accountants will get involved too. Only after everyone is in agreement will anything happen.

This is how corporations work. Be patient!

 

[dvvega]

WOTC will release the data when they deem necessary. Although many people are jaded, think about it this way:

if they DO NOT release it ... what will happen? Someone or a group of people will enter all the splatbook information into some kind of format, be it PCGen or other system.

This information will then be distributed around the net from friend to friend at no cost to anyone except an internet connection.

It was the same with the AD&D Software that came out. You could enter your own equipment etc and you could (and still can) find hundreds of addon files for it.

I think WOTC would (should?) be more interested in the completely scanned copies of their splatbooks and manuals that anyone with half a brain can download.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

PCgen will not die even if WotC does not approve its non-SRD material, but probably not for the reasons Mynex and Co. can admit to. While not everyone is able to make thier own lst files right now it is not nearly as hard as writing your own copy of Unreal. The expertise is not limited to PCGen developers and people will produce the files independent of PCgen and thier wishes. Its not that PCgen can't handle the splat material they are just not providing it. For now almost everyone is respecting PCGen's wishes and not distributing these files in hopes that as they say this will help thier negotiations. If the negotiations fail I personaly feel that it will be much more dificult to stop people from sharing just as they do now for etools. PCGen can and will continue to follow d20 rules and not distribute any non-aproved material but the files will still be availible elseware. If WotC decides to start suing unafilliated individues for this they could, but it will cause them a much larger PR problem than going after a company (Dispite its all volunteer status thats what PCGen is now) and look how well the even larger and deeper pocketed music industry has done in shutting down file sharing. If WotC is smart they will licence the material to PCGen and stop the black market before it even forms.


[Edit: Sorry to repeat part of what dvvega posted but he posted while I was working on my reply]

 

[bushfire]

Right now it's difficult without a steep learning curve to enter your own list files yes, hoever, the 1st of the list editors is in place (the Deity Editor) and it's just the 1st step to having editors for all the types of list files. They're coming, they'll make life easier for all, and just be patient.

Mynex,

I have to say that not having easy to use lst editors is what is stopping me from using PCGen right now.

I really don't want or need complete support from the splat books, but I do want to pick and choose what I want to enter from them. Actually the same goes for most any D20 material also.

I know I can learn the lst tag format and use a text editor to create files, I just don't want to have to

 

[tburdett]

Right now it's difficult without a steep learning curve to enter your own list files yes, hoever, the 1st of the list editors is in place (the Deity Editor) and it's just the 1st step to having editors for all the types of list files. They're coming, they'll make life easier for all, and just be patient.

By difficult, don't you mean nearly impossible? The documentation for creating .lst files is very incomplete.

As to the little trolling post above, he's way off base. D20 is around to stay and there's a TON of material out there that rocks... hell, go look in the publishers forum just to get an idea... there's a lot of talent out there making great products (Book of the Rightseous, Monsternomicon, & Oathbound to name my current favorite 3!)...

The market and user base for the non-D&D products is tiny compared to the market for D&D products.

It's 'neat' to be able to claim that you support 20+ publishers, but it's not really important when you are not able to include material from THE publisher that matters, namely Wizards.

True, if Wizards and we can not reach an agreement about the non D20 books, then people that play Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Call of Cthulhu, The Realms, and use ONLY Wizards materials will have to make their own list files or find another product to use... but I beg you to point out another product that has these files, and can implement them correctly.

In one paragraph you admit that you might have to completely write off the Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Call of Cthulhu, Forgotten Realms, and non-SRD D&D material. Doesn't this make you wonder at all about the viability of PC Gen if this comes to pass?

Do you really discount the fact that it was the, now illicit, non-SRD material that brought the VAST majority of users to PC Gen?

What percentage of your users will take the time to create their own list files?

How many of those users would abandon the product if they had to enter ALL of the list files for the Realms, or some other popular campaign setting that Wizards may release in the future, all by themselves?

Remember, if PC Gen is denied the use of this material, any website that tries to later distribute the same material is going to get sat on by Wizards.

Oh wait, there isn't one. So I suppose you (the Troller) should hope that we do reach an agreement with Wizards, eh?

I would love to see you be able to include these files with PC Gen, but I don't believe that it will happen. I'll explain why.

How does Wizards protect this material when any interested party can come along and take your source code to create a non-compliant app?

Here's an example.

You have removed dice rolling from your app because Wizards wants it that way.

Joe Coderman doesn't like this and notices that your source code is available. He takes your code, modifies it to allow dice rolling (stats, hit points, etc) and then releases it. He does not modify any other portions of the program. He does NOT include any list files at all. A few days or weeks after every new PC Gen release, Joe drops off his new PC Jen.

The end users come to PC Gen for the data files and then jump over to Joe Coderman's Sourceforge page to grab his new and improved PC Jen Plus app.

If I can figure this out, I'm sure that some knucklehead at Wizards can figure this out.

As for your 'troll' accusation. Name calling is a nice way to shift the focus away from your current problems on to me.

Let's shift the focus back to you.

What do you plan to do if you are unable to get permission from Wizards to use their IP?

Why won't you answer this simple question?

I think that you avoid this question because you are not willing to be honest with the community.

 

[karianna]

OK, I can reply to some of this.

By difficult, don't you mean nearly impossible? The documentation for creating .lst files is very incomplete.

OK, this has been massively redressed in recent weeks, the LST documentation has goe through some major improvements. Also please note the comment from Mynex about the LST editors coming online

What percentage of your users will take the time to create their own list files?

See my comment above, sure not many at the moment (although we have at least 500 or so that do), but that will increase with the improved docs and the LST editors

Let's shift the focus back to you.
What do you plan to do if you are unable to get permission from Wizards to use their IP?
Why won't you answer this simple question?
I think that you avoid this question because you are not willing to be honest with the community.

OK, I cannot claim to speak for Mynex here, but here is my take, (I'm a reasonably high ranking monkey ;p).

1.) I think we'll wait and see how the negotiations with Wizards go, I'm suspecting something very good will come out of it. Why? Coz if they wanted to tell us to go away they would have done it by now, in fact they would've done it _months_ ago.

2.) The LST editors that we have in the works will allow people to fairly easily enter products that _they own_, no legal problems there.

3.) I'll let Mynex reply about his 'honesty', needless to say that for the 2-3000 users on the pcgen boards, mynex is _definately_ known for his honesty <grin>. Read some of his posts there and you'll see what I mean.

Karianna

 

[Mynex]

Let's shift the focus back to you.

What do you plan to do if you are unable to get permission from Wizards to use their IP?

Why won't you answer this simple question?

I think that you avoid this question because you are not willing to be honest with the community.

*sigh* You are Troller, but I'll bite just to shut you up.

_IF_ Wizards says no, we'll not include what they've said no to. Simple eh? Oh, and it's the same thing we've been saying all along, you've just not bothered to listen.

Regardless of your attempts to paint the picture otherwise, PCGen is, and will remain, alive and well. It will continure to grow, despite naysayers as yourself.

Now, I've answered your question directly, Continue to harp if you like, but your wasting of my time is over.

 

[Capellan]

Please explain to me what your plans are if WoTC decides to deny you access to their intellectual property?

If WoTC shuts you out is there really any reason to continue with the software?

Hell yes. If it came down to choosing between PCGen and the WotC splatbooks, I'd pick PCGen any day. It is a much more valuable tool in running my campaign, and there are dozens of PrC books out there that PCGen will be able to support, and which I could quite easily use in place of WotC's offerings.

Note that I'm not affiliated with the PCGen team in any way. I just know a fine product when I see it.

 

[smetzger]

Anthony Valtera asked about a month ago on the OGL list what publishers wanted released into the SRD next. It seems that eventually material from the splatbooks will be designated as OGC.