A question for PCGen users
- Thread starter James McMurray
- Start date
Leopold said:
The key word was "eventually". If I remember right from the unofficial "poll" on the OGL list the ELH was ranked as #1 and the splatbooks near the bottom of what publishers wanted next in the SRD.
What a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that the OGL & SRD was not made to *primarily* benefit the players, any more than the GNU/open source software concept directly benefits the end user of computer programs.
The D20/OGL was created so that 3rd party publishers could create products that supported and drove the sale of the Wotc Core Rulebooks. The players only benefit indirectly from having more publishers creating more "ideas" that fit the D20 ruleset.
I would think that any time Wotc is deciding what next to release to the SRD they are looking at several things.
- Will this increase the sale of books (Wotc books only!)?
- Will this dilute the value of our current books/settings?
- How hard (read time/money) will it be to strip out Wotc IP to make it open?
- Is this something D20 publishers want/need/are asking for in the SRD?
I have no idea how Wotc is prioritizing the above but I bet at the bottom of the listis where the players/fans wishes are.
TheAuldGrump
First Post
tburdett said:
Umm, no they mean 'difficult'. I am not a programmer, yet it did not take me all tht long to add several new races and a prestige class (Master Gunner) to the program. And that was under 2.x. Yes the documentation leaves a wee bit to be desired in that area, but don't forget that you have the .lst files themselves to go off of. Use it as an example, heck, try cut, paste and changing stuff around, thats how I added the races.
The Auld Grump, who realizes that the whole OGL thing is virgin legal territory, and understands why WOTC is being careful.
Henry
Autoexreginated
First of all, please let me say, on behalf of ENWorld, that we do appreciate Mynex, Karianna, Leopold, et. al. of the PCGEN team participating on the boards. It's nice to know what's going on in ALL of d20.
Secondly, tburdett, personally I feel you underestimate the d20 movement to being "primarily WotC" (not your words, but seemingly your sentiment). Many of the d20 publishers included by PCGen include some of the biggest named game designers inthe business, including HALF of the laid-off WotC staff - including Green Ronin, Malhavoc Press, Bastion Press, and about 15 more that escape my memory at the moment.
This is not to even mention the sheer amount of WotC material already entered into OGL - the PHB, the DMG, the MM, the Psionics Handbook - and soon the Epic Level Handbook.
Third, speaking from first-hand experience, I have written two entire sets of lits files for my personal use (well, written is probably too strong - more like converted existing list files.) I wrote an entire set from scratch for Call of Cthulhu d20 rules for my gorup's use, and I converted Star Wars d20 LST's into a set od d20 Rules that one of my group's DMs came up with - for a Star Trek game setting. The LST file tags are not hard, and if anything, they are even easier than they used to be. The reason I do not work on them any longer is because it is time-consuming to do so. If anyone has a basic grasp of HTML, the concept of working with a tag-based language is not hard at all. In fact, when the data files move to XML, they will be even easier to use, even without an editor.
... and LAST, need I remind everyone of one of the biggest OGL d20 products coming down the pike as we speak?!??! the d20 Modern setting is shaping up to be a strong set of rules, and the ENTIRE thing will be open game content as soon as it hits the stores! (That is, according to Anthony Valterra.) d20 Modern has several publishing companies releasing compatible material as soon as it hits, so expect to see a sudden popularity trend in modern-day gaming.
P.S. Green Ronin's mutants and masterminds is OGL content as well, am I correct? d20 ain't going anywhere, so PCGEN, as long as it stays d20 compliant, isn't either. Marginalized might be too strong a word.
Secondly, tburdett, personally I feel you underestimate the d20 movement to being "primarily WotC" (not your words, but seemingly your sentiment). Many of the d20 publishers included by PCGen include some of the biggest named game designers inthe business, including HALF of the laid-off WotC staff - including Green Ronin, Malhavoc Press, Bastion Press, and about 15 more that escape my memory at the moment.
This is not to even mention the sheer amount of WotC material already entered into OGL - the PHB, the DMG, the MM, the Psionics Handbook - and soon the Epic Level Handbook.
Third, speaking from first-hand experience, I have written two entire sets of lits files for my personal use (well, written is probably too strong - more like converted existing list files.) I wrote an entire set from scratch for Call of Cthulhu d20 rules for my gorup's use, and I converted Star Wars d20 LST's into a set od d20 Rules that one of my group's DMs came up with - for a Star Trek game setting. The LST file tags are not hard, and if anything, they are even easier than they used to be. The reason I do not work on them any longer is because it is time-consuming to do so. If anyone has a basic grasp of HTML, the concept of working with a tag-based language is not hard at all. In fact, when the data files move to XML, they will be even easier to use, even without an editor.
... and LAST, need I remind everyone of one of the biggest OGL d20 products coming down the pike as we speak?!??! the d20 Modern setting is shaping up to be a strong set of rules, and the ENTIRE thing will be open game content as soon as it hits the stores! (That is, according to Anthony Valterra.) d20 Modern has several publishing companies releasing compatible material as soon as it hits, so expect to see a sudden popularity trend in modern-day gaming.
P.S. Green Ronin's mutants and masterminds is OGL content as well, am I correct? d20 ain't going anywhere, so PCGEN, as long as it stays d20 compliant, isn't either. Marginalized might be too strong a word.
Knightcrawler
First Post
Ok as to making LST files. Its not that hard. What you just start out doing is a lot of cut and paste, cut and paste. Its not that difficult to learn how to make your own files.
The documentation has improved 300% in the last couple of months. Will everybody be satisfied with the documentation. No of course not. There's always going to be somebody out there that thinks that this or that function needs to be documented more. The documentation is one of the things that people have probably griped about the most. Since there are no editors as of now other than the deity editor the documentation was under a lot of scrutiny by many people. If you think it needs improvement then offer some constructive criticism. Point out what you think is wrong. Don't just bitch and moan about it.
I've coded in several entire sources and have QA'd and updated several others. At first glance the files do look hard but once you sit down and put some effort into learning them you'll quickly be entering your own sources.
The documentation has improved 300% in the last couple of months. Will everybody be satisfied with the documentation. No of course not. There's always going to be somebody out there that thinks that this or that function needs to be documented more. The documentation is one of the things that people have probably griped about the most. Since there are no editors as of now other than the deity editor the documentation was under a lot of scrutiny by many people. If you think it needs improvement then offer some constructive criticism. Point out what you think is wrong. Don't just bitch and moan about it.
I've coded in several entire sources and have QA'd and updated several others. At first glance the files do look hard but once you sit down and put some effort into learning them you'll quickly be entering your own sources.
I have also heard rumors of LST file editors. These are suppose to make it easy to create your own lst files. I'm keeping my fingers crost.
Another reason for WOTC creating the OGL / D20 system was to keep some control of the way the game developed and was promoted. Since they are aming at teenagers and up there is some material that is clearly inapropriate. It makes a great deal of business since for them to try and limit such materail associated with their game particularly from comercial sources. I think that is one of the major drivers as far as to why they have been as cooperative as they have been.
I don't know all that went on and goes on between WOTC and the PCGen crew but I think that the present course is best in the long term it will give us users a better tool, make life easier for the pcgen crew, and help WOTC by promoting their products. I just wish I could easily update some of the characters I'm running in a current campaing again.
Another reason for WOTC creating the OGL / D20 system was to keep some control of the way the game developed and was promoted. Since they are aming at teenagers and up there is some material that is clearly inapropriate. It makes a great deal of business since for them to try and limit such materail associated with their game particularly from comercial sources. I think that is one of the major drivers as far as to why they have been as cooperative as they have been.
I don't know all that went on and goes on between WOTC and the PCGen crew but I think that the present course is best in the long term it will give us users a better tool, make life easier for the pcgen crew, and help WOTC by promoting their products. I just wish I could easily update some of the characters I'm running in a current campaing again.
Well, I've been called a troll (not by you Henry), so why not play the part?
I'll go ahead and apply the Half-Troll template to myself and reply.
Making friends wherever I go with my sunny disposition and easy going attitude!
I do not believe that the companies that you referenced sell enough product to represent even a significant fraction of what WotC sells.
These companies are 'niche' companies that exist solely because WotC created a license that ALLOWS them to exist. If WotC felt that it could sell more products by forcing these companies out of business, it would. As it is, WotC uses (yes, uses) these listed companies to drive the sales of it's core products.
When you ask one of these companies "Who is your daddy?" they had better answer that "WotC" is their daddy. Factual.
Furthermore, the very fact that these companies sell small amounts of product in comparison to WotC limits their penetration into gaming groups.
I'm basing my opinions on a set of ideas that may or may not be accurate. Based on what I've read here (in the news, the polls, and in the forums) I believe that these are accurate.
a) That the vast majority of d20 gamers are involved in D&D campaigns.
b) That the vast majority of D&D games include some splatbook material.
c) That the D&D games that include splatbook material will continue to use splatbook material even if PC Gen is no longer able to include it.
If (a), (b), and (c) are all true, then PC Gen WILL be marginalized if they are unable to include WotC's D&D splatbook material.
You said yourself that you no longer enter list file information because it is too time consuming. That is one of the points that I was trying to make.
I have a career, family, and a life away from the gaming table. My entire existance does not revolve around what WotC or any of these other companies does.
I have no interest in deciphering list creation documentation or entering list entry after list entry, and I don't think that I am in the minority.
Projects like PC Gen depend on being able to distribute the work load to a large number of participants.
This allows a large number of individuals to complete a task in a fraction of the time that it would take a single individual to complete that same task.
If EVERY user has to enter WotC's non-SRD material because WotC refuses to allow PC Gen to use it, the program will be useless to the vast majority of gamers.
BTW Mynex, I'm still waiting for an official answer to my question about the creation of a non-compliant PC Gen app based upon your freely available source code and the possible ramifications of that action with regards to your deal with WotC.
Hugs and kisses for everybody. Of course, you'll need to make a save to avoid the effects of my saliva, but that's not my problem.
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