D&D 5E A question for the 5e Experts about the Monk class

[jaelis]

The only abilities you gain that are not uses of Ki points, which you'll already be sharing with your stuns, step of the wind, patient defense, flurry) are some healing at 6 and sanctuary at 11. I wouldn't be worried about it as a DM. In my game I'd buff the monk considerably... but so far nobody really wants to play one (even knowing there would be buffs).

Open Hand technique doesn't use any extra ki either, beyond that required for flurry of blows anyway. That's what makes open hand nice, nothing but quivering palm uses more ki. And quivering palm uses it rather effectively

 

[jgsugden]

Open Hand technique doesn't use any extra ki either, beyond that required for flurry of blows anyway. That's what makes open hand nice, nothing but quivering palm uses more ki. And quivering palm uses it rather effectively

We're saying the same thing. Open Hand Technique augments Flurry, which requires Ki - it is on top of the pother benefits of Ki, but still requires Ki. Wholeness of Body and Tranquility do not require Ki, Quivering Palm requires 3 Ki. All of Four Elements requires Ki.

Honestly, I wonder if there is any combination of 2 Orders that, when combined, would make the monk too powerful.

 

[Ancalagon]

Here is how I would do it:

First, the Monk of the Way of the Four Elements is martial arts ish enough to portray the Avatar characters. Stunning strike, flurry of blows, the crazy speed... it's enough. You don't need Open Hand to portray it.

BUT WotFE is weak because as the others say, there isn't enough Ki. But on the other hand, if you give it more Ki is clearly outclasses the other monks. What to do?

It was suggested by someone else, and I entirely agree, to give a small number of extra Ki points (maybe = proficiency bonus?) that can *only be used* with the elemental powers. That way you can't take WotFE and stunning strike all day long, but you still feel free to use a bit of your monkish magic.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

We're saying the same thing. Open Hand Technique augments Flurry, which requires Ki - it is on top of the pother benefits of Ki, but still requires Ki. Wholeness of Body and Tranquility do not require Ki, Quivering Palm requires 3 Ki. All of Four Elements requires Ki.

Honestly, I wonder if there is any combination of 2 Orders that, when combined, would make the monk too powerful.

Not all 4 elements require ki. Elemental attunement does not.
I'd also say, complaining about the ki cost is wrong. Monks have a lot of ki. It rather is the action cost that is problematic. Butning hands dor 3d6 damage needs to be weighted against 1 attack at 1d8+3 and 3 at 1d4+3 (1 round of attacks + 1 round with 1 more ki left). You need to hit 3 creatures to have a net benefit. Open hand technique gets those 4 attacks and at least allows retreat because of no reactions but with a bit luck you cam set the wnemy up for more pain from your fellows. Note that you have to do your flurry after your normal attacks so you don't benefit a lot from knocking prone.
Sun soul monks get burning hands as bonus action for the same ki cost which is a really good feature.

Note that both open hand techniques and burning hand spell get less useful after stunning fist... no reactions and prone give no benefit over stunned.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Core monk has enough kung-fu without the Open Hand subclass. That's basically what they do once they run out of magic fuel.

What you might like to do is early on have your Four Elements monk find some kind of magic item that boosts their Ki.

 

[Enkhidu]

...BUT WotFE is weak because as the others say, there isn't enough Ki. But on the other hand, if you give it more Ki is clearly outclasses the other monks. What to do?

Selectively reduce Ki costs for Four Elements powers by one, and make powers that already only cost 1 Ki bonus actions?

 

[the Jester]

And yes, i was indeed thinking getting all of the things per tradition. But i could see giving the first one when you normally get a tradition (3rd lvl) and the second one maybe later? For example 2 or 3 levels later? I don't know. Although for this group, again, the problem is we most often only play to level 10 ish .

So you're talking about getting a bunch of extra abilities without trading anything away for it? That's a hard no in my book.

I mean i get the "you have to choose between the things you get" but then it kind of defeats the purpose that i had in mind.

Well, the problem is, from the sounds of things, your purpose is to get extra stuff at no cost. Which is, by definition, out of balance.

 

[Ashrym]

I can see why a person might want to add quivering palm to any build. As others have said, it's not necessary for the avatar style character because of the standard class abilities.

 

[jgsugden]

The starting question was: Would a monk PC that has both OH and 4E be too strong. To me, the answer is no. I see no situation in which adding the 4E options to the OH abilities, when all of the 4E abilities (except the 1 that approximates a cantrip) cost Ki, would be too strong.

 

[Ashrym]

To answer the question in the OP, I think it would be an issue. Wot4E monks add range and AoE not normally available as they add spells which recharge on a short rest mechanic. They already maintain potent abilities from the base class.

Open hand monks add combat abilities and killshot ability with quivering palm.

Giving both creates a lot of combat versatility fast.

It might work in the op's game but I would say it's too much.