A sacred cow to slay: starting at 1st level

[Hassassin]

How did that wizard reach 8th level if he never left the academy?

Levels above first are an indication that some adventuring, and thus experience at facing danger has occured.

If that's how you interpret it, there should be nothing wrong with the Commoner class. They've even faced danger, and thus gotten better at things adventurers are good at (while still focusing on their profession), or they haven't and are still level 1.

Personally, I don't see why an NPC wizard couldn't have grown very powerful without facing danger. Danger is just a catalyst for faster XP gain, it isn't a requirement. That's how it works IMC, anyway.

 

[Henry]

How did that wizard reach 8th level if he never left the academy?

Levels above first are an indication that some adventuring, and thus experience at facing danger has occured.

So you're saying that a person who entered an academy at say age 10, studied magic for twenty years, can't learn anything above a 1st level spell if he never faced danger?

I agree that the path to power for PLAYER CHARACTERS should be fraught with danger and excitement, but that no one could gain spellcasting ability unless they've at the very least been in a barfight stretches plausibility for me.

The man or woman who is 10th level because they spent 40 years studying I can get behind; it takes years to substitute for the harsh teacher that is life-threatening peril. But that you'd never gain anything above first as a wizard-bookworm? I can't see it personally.

 

[Guest 85555]

I think it is a much better option to keep first level and just let groups start at 3rd if they prefer. Lots of people prefer starting at 3rd, but there are also lots of gamers who love starting at first level. I think the goal of 5E should be to broaden potential playstyles, not narrow them.

 

[ExploderWizard]

So you're saying that a person who entered an academy at say age 10, studied magic for twenty years, can't learn anything above a 1st level spell if he never faced danger?

I agree that the path to power for PLAYER CHARACTERS should be fraught with danger and excitement, but that no one could gain spellcasting ability unless they've at the very least been in a barfight stretches plausibility for me.

The man or woman who is 10th level because they spent 40 years studying I can get behind; it takes years to substitute for the harsh teacher that is life-threatening peril. But that you'd never gain anything above first as a wizard-bookworm? I can't see it personally.

Fighting may or may not be required. It is quite possible to accumulate enough XP through gaining treasure to gain levels. This can be obtained through stealth, trickery, or force.

It might be possible for someone studying to acquire 10th level casting ability. That wouldn't automatically make him a 10th level magic user.
I would still stat him up as a normal man with 1-7 hp or so.

The full benefits of class levels come from being members of the class and gaining XP. Hit points and improved saving throws are partially based on luck and magical protections that adventurers gain as they aquire experience. Why would an old man who spent 40 years in study have 10 hit dice?

 

[darkwing]

Because in 1-2-3E (cant speak for 4E), too much granularity is crammed into 0th thru 1st level. Theres not enough to differentiate between, say: the utterly helpless / the pathetic peasant / the burly farmer / the militia man / the bandit / the veteran soldier.

In 4e 1st level is fun. Also, the NPCs are whatever you make them.

 

[tuxgeo]

< snip >
Why would an old man who spent 40 years in study have 10 hit dice?

OOC: Quest XP earned by research?

In-character: Battling his inner demons; and contending with summoned demons as part of the practical research required by the studies?
(You don't have to leave the building to attempt a summoning.)

 

[Henry]

Fighting may or may not be required. It is quite possible to accumulate enough XP through gaining treasure to gain levels. This can be obtained through stealth, trickery, or force.

It might be possible for someone studying to acquire 10th level casting ability. That wouldn't automatically make him a 10th level magic user.
I would still stat him up as a normal man with 1-7 hp or so.

The full benefits of class levels come from being members of the class and gaining XP. Hit points and improved saving throws are partially based on luck and magical protections that adventurers gain as they aquire experience. Why would an old man who spent 40 years in study have 10 hit dice?

Ah, I thought you were speaking in terms of any of the existing D&D versions. If we're talking redesign, I could see it. But in D&D, levels mean across-the-board improvement, so there's no way around it without altering the rules - and a wizard who spent his or her life on magic theory has got to be able to cast higher-level spells.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Many fantasy books and movies would disagree.

True. That's mostly a setting issue. But in that case, most commoners can be level 1 or 2, regardless of age. A level 6 commoner is a commoner who has survived more than a few rough experiences, but still focuses their efforts on their daily tasks.

Some further expansion on my earlier thoughts. The idea is that levels represent general combat and adventuring skill. PC classes represent holistic adventuring training.

NPC classes represent training in other fields with some additional adventuring related experience. NPC classes are useful for creating capable characters without mucking about with multiclassing or feats, talents, or powers. Of course, I wouldn't say they're necessary, NPCs could simply be given stats like monsters, but I like them.

There are limits to how much we can simulate anything with a level and class system. Sometimes you have to just go with it.

 

[Greg K]

I think it is a much better option to keep first level and just let groups start at 3rd if they prefer. Lots of people prefer starting at 3rd, but there are also lots of gamers who love starting at first level. I think the goal of 5E should be to broaden potential playstyles, not narrow them.

I wish I could XP you, but it states that I have to spread the XP. I am getting that with several posters (and it is starting to get a little aggravating. )

 

[TrippyHippy]

In 4e 1st level is fun.

In any edition, 1st level is fun.