A simple fix to balance fighters vs. casters ?

[Umbran]

actually no, why do I care, pardon my language but your obviously a bigot, and can't be reasoned with.

CrazyNinjabeast, you're new to the boards, and perhaps you didn't read in detail when you signed up, so let me introduce you to the Rules of EN World.

Rule #1: Keep it civil. That means no personal insults or name calling. Specifically, calling someone a "bigot" (which has hefty racist overtones) overall disagreement about game classes is uncalled for. Furthermore, failing to agree with you or find your points convincing does not equate to "can't be reasoned with".

Keep it cool. There's very little being discussed on these boards that is more important than the people you're discussing with. There's rarely going to be anything that justifies attacking the person behind the post. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

And is there somwhere in the RAW that says you have to play with the Spell Compendium?

Of course not. But, presumably, you are playing with the PHB?

Then, line-item vetoing spells from the PHB is a house rule.

Similarly, including the SC is a house rule; line-item vetoing spells from the SC is another HR (or, depending on perspective, a modification of the HR to include it).

As stated, consider the DM creates the entire fictional world, I see no deviation from RAW to tell a player, "you are not able to find any information on how to cast X spell."

Whereas I'm pretty certain that counts as a house rule. You're taking away a spell from the PHB.

 

[kitcik]

So you admittedly don't know anything about spells, think an intelligent flying creature amidst a treasure hoard leaves a smooth floor for a ground-based creature to charge across, don't understand how actions work, think that a dragon has an AMF in its entrance but no alarm or any defense set up against a knight on a horse charging into its lair, etc., etc., etc.

But you do think you are qualified to determine that "no one class is better than any other" in the face of every charop board in the known universe.

Dang it, you've got us. I'm playing a monk.

 

[Ettin]

Is it me, or does the pro-fighter side of the "Wizards are/aren't overpowered" argument always boil down to "Well, if I get enough magic items to emulate a wizard..."

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Is it me, or does the pro-fighter side of the "Wizards are/aren't overpowered" argument always boil down to "Well, if I get enough magic items to emulate a wizard..."

Oftentimes it does, which is probably indicative of a problem in the balance between magic-using and non-magic-using classes...

 

[Visigani]

Problem is all these contests tend to be of the type that benefit the Wizard.

Who is going to win in a swimming contest, you or the dolphin?


Further, there is a TON of presumption in favor of the Wizard. The Wizard is assumed to be fully rested, have access to any and all spells at all times, any numbers of resources and a plethora of other non real game benefits.

Just because the game says you CAN find something doesn't mean you WILL find something.

This benefit is never granted the fighter.


These contests never read "Fighter, Wizard and Olidimarra Roll for Initiative. Olidimarra wins initiative and banishes both Fighter and Wizard to a plane where mortals have no access to arcane magic."

Who wins this contest? It's perfectly within reason in the D&D universe, this could actually happen. The deity did nothing to the Wizard that he did not also do to the fighter... and the Fighter promptly hacks the Wizard to death and eats his familiar.

That's how much of these Wizard v. Fighter contests play out. The Wizard is granted absolute fiat when it comes to anything pertaining to his class while INTENTIONALLY leaving out the intelligent stopgap that exists to prevent abuses.

 

[Dandu]

Further, there is a TON of presumption in favor of the Wizard. The Wizard is assumed to be fully rested, have access to any and all spells at all times, any numbers of resources and a plethora of other non real game benefits.

Yes, for some reason these arguments assume each class can use class abilities and wealth when trying to determine what a class is capable of if all other things are equal. What a shocker.

Just because the game says you CAN find something doesn't mean you WILL find something.

This benefit is never granted the fighter.

The fighter has free access to magical weapons, armor, and gear in all contests I have seen or participated in. I would say that being able to find anything is applied fairly. It just happens that what the fighter finds (equipment) sucks in comparison to what the wizard finds (spells).

These contests never read "Fighter, Wizard and Olidimarra Roll for Initiative. Olidimarra wins initiative and banishes both Fighter and Wizard to a plane where mortals have no access to arcane magic."

Who wins this contest? It's perfectly within reason in the D&D universe, this could actually happen. The deity did nothing to the Wizard that he did not also do to the fighter... and the Fighter promptly hacks the Wizard to death and eats his familiar.

One could contrive a contest that goes "Olidimarra banishes the Fighter and Wizard to a plane but steals their equipment."

Who wins this contest? It's perfectly within reason in the D&D universe, this could actually happen. The deity did nothing to the Wizard that he did not also do to the Fighter... and the Wizard promptly ensorcells the Fighter and makes him cry.

These contests never read that for the reason that - hold onto your hat - they prove nothing other than "if you take away a class' abilities, they suck."

Any class can be made to fail via fiat. That is why these sorts of scenarios generally assume that
1. Classes get to use their abilities.
2. Anything that is in the allowed books can be found by the parties involved.
3. There is no favoritism towards one class or another - ie, no fighting in AMFs, everyone is well rested and at full HP, and so forth.

And probably a few more that I'm forgetting, but I trust you get the point. By allowing each class to perform at its maximum, you can see what they are capable of.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

. . . there is a TON of presumption in favor of the Wizard.

Stating that when both classes start fully rested and have access to any equipment presumes favor to the wizard kind of acknowledges the superiority of the wizard, no?

Having the DM invent reasons to never let the spellcasting classes start fully rested is rather hopeless for the players. Having to reach a point of system mastery to know which spells to deny the PC spellcasters access to in any particular campaign because it might someday nerf the DM's plans is hopeless for prospective DMs. Who would want either?

 

[Arrowhawk]

Of course not. But, presumably, you are playing with the PHB?

Then, line-item vetoing spells from the PHB is a house rule.

There is no "vetoing" of spells. The spell exists, it may even be used against you. But the people who know the spell have gone to great lengths to keep its information preserved to few select individuals...and you aren't one of them. You might be able to do something to get access to the spell, but you might wish you hadn't.

Similarly, including the SC is a house rule; line-item vetoing spells from the SC is another HR (or, depending on perspective, a modification of the HR to include it).

Once gain, restricting the access of spells is not vetoing their existence. Just because you own a fighter plane doesn't mean you can automatically fine nuclear weapons for it.

You're taking away a spell from the PHB.

I haven't taken anything away. The spell exists.

Nowhere in any book does it mandate I let a Wizard have any spell they want as soon as they level. The game is replete with direct and indirect instructions on controlling the campaign and everything that's in it. If you can't contemplate that without calling it a house rule...fine. It's really irrelevant to the fact that DM's are responsible for maintaining balance and as soon as you throw your hands up in the air and say I'm powerless to stop any caster from getting any spell they want...well then yes, JKaron's Tier system is probably going to bear out.

Spells of the power that can change the fabric of the game are like nuclear weapons in our reality. Every single govenment on this planet will attempt to control any nuclear weapons that it gets wind of. You have casters running around with Greater Teleportation, people are going to notice and perceive you as a threat. Governments are going to notice you and perceive you as a threat. There are infinite plausible non-metagame reasons to for nations, individuals, and deities all more powerful than any PC in your campaign to control the accessibility of game breaking spells.

What I will concede is that the game does not do a good job of explicitly identifying the problems of unfettered spell casters. The RAW certainly allow you to simply let the Sorc or even the Wizard pick any spell they want. Even if Deities grant higher level spells to Clerics/Druids, the game doesn't really tell you to think about what spells a Deity will grant and when they are granted. So I'm certainly not going to say DM's are doing it wrong with regards to RAW...but I would argue you are doing it wrong with regards to the spirit of the rules and the responsibilities imposed on DM's.

But any game in wihch the DM doesn't maintain balance...will become unwieldy. Look, it's absolutely ridiculous that 1st level characters always seem to find dungeons with low CR encounters. Or that a 2nd Level part never seems to get into a bar fight with a couple of lvl 19 dudes looking to have some fun. The DM intentionallly crafts the world to fit the characters that are in it. There's no reason to abandon this responsibility when it comes to magic, specifically spells. Do you think the game intended for characters to always be able to buy any magic item once they have the money for it and find a major city that can have it?

My ultimate point is to tell any DM who reads the Tier system and says OMG911BBQ!!! Monks or Fighters are crap, to understand that the ranking system is invalid if the assumptions that it is based on are invalid i.e. casters with unfettered access to spells and components. Whether you want to label that as a House Rule...is irrelevant. DM's can control it with plausible in-game reasons.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Dandu]

Or that a 2nd Level part never seems to get into a bar fight with a couple of lvl 19 dudes looking to have some fun.

Faerun.