A simple fix to balance fighters vs. casters ?

[Dandu]

Arrowhawk, are you familiar with the term "straw man"?

There is a good point in this, many always assume that the caster is well rested and has all their spells. How about a week of adventuring with no time to really get a good nights rest. The caster probably has gone through most of their spells at that point, they both have penalties...and when attacked it's probable that the martial class would have the upper hand (as all those pretty spells to give the wizard that upper hand probably were burned off the by wizard already since they were trying to show up the martial class by using those spells in the first place rather than using party dynamics to cooperate and use that synergy to make the party a more powerful group as a whole).

Just a thought.

How much HP is a fighter who has been fighting for a week with no rest going to have?

Just a thought.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

It's the same fiat (authorative order) Jkaron uses to say somehow the Wizard should be considered as having every single spell in the Wizard's spell book.

The tier system is an informed opinion, not a fiat. If opinions are fiats to you, well, you must be living an oppressed life.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

There is no "vetoing" of spells. The spell exists, it may even be used against you. But the people who know the spell have gone to great lengths to keep its information preserved to few select individuals...and you aren't one of them.

... which is a house rule.

It's really as simple as that.

 

[Dandu]

There is a good point in this, many always assume that the caster is well rested and has all their spells. How about a week of adventuring with no time to really get a good nights rest. The caster probably has gone through most of their spells at that point, they both have penalties...and when attacked it's probable that the martial class would have the upper hand (as all those pretty spells to give the wizard that upper hand probably were burned off the by wizard already since they were trying to show up the martial class by using those spells in the first place rather than using party dynamics to cooperate and use that synergy to make the party a more powerful group as a whole).

Just a thought.

Greylord, you do seem to have missed the point. It's not about winning the game by not using party dynamics and being a one man army, it's about what your class brings to the party. A fighter brings the ability to hit things, hard. A wizard bring the ability to: deal damage, cast buffs, inflict debuffs, shape the battlefield, create secure shelter for rest, summon allies, teleport, plane shift, gather information, control minds, create illusions, time travel, and probably a dozen other things I'm forgetting.

Just a thought.

 

[GreyLord]

Arrowhawk, are you familiar with the term "straw man"?


How much HP is a fighter who has been fighting for a week with no rest going to have?

Just a thought.

Good thought. Depends.

If it's a spellcaster who's been memorizing spells and using them to be a better fighter then the fighter?

Probably quite a bit more then the spellcaster who's out of spells. It's the spellcaster who's been doing all that fighting instead of using the resources otherwise.

If it's been a fairshare...probably still more than the spellcaster on average, which would still probably be more than enough to take the spellcaster down.

However, IF the group actually played like a Roleplaying group and people teamed together and worked together as a team...The fighter has probably been taking the bruteload of the hits, and would be dead except for the healing he's recieved...while the casters stayed back and did other things like either buff the party or use spells that did other things then make them fighters...

In which case the fighter could very well have far less then the spellcasters and the spellcasters may even be near their max or at their full Hit Points.

In which case if for some bizarro reason they decided to hit each other (afterall in the last scenario they've been working together, why they'd start whacking at each other would be a mystery) the fighter would have to hope that his higher BAB and Attacks would be able to deal with the spellcaster who has a lower BAB, attacks, but full HP and perhaps one or two spells left...one of which could be lethal instantly to the fighter.

Greylord, you do seem to have missed the point. It's not about winning the game by not using party dynamics and being a one man army, it's about what your class brings to the party. A fighter brings the ability to hit things, hard. A wizard bring the ability to: deal damage, cast buffs, inflict debuffs, shape the battlefield, create secure shelter for rest, summon allies, teleport, plane shift, gather information, control minds, create illusions, time travel, and probably a dozen other things I'm forgetting.

Just a thought.

I'd say a Fighter brings a lot that most discount. Most warriors do. Though many despise the MMORPG idea, the Fighter is the Tank, they absorb the damage that most spellcasters cannot. The one that could, the Cleric, actually can replicate the fighter's abilities for a few battles, but if they spend all their abilities to do that, they are useless overall in relation to the rest of the party. A selfish cleric really helps no one. However, due to their armor they can wear by class, as well as a nice HP (not as nice as the fighter, but nice), the Cleric can be a better fighter than a fighter for a few fights. HOWEVER, after those few fights, the Cleric's out of spells, whilst the fighter still can keep on ticking. That's the Fighter's strength, to be able to keep going...and going...and going naturally without the fear of running out of spells.

A druid can also be useful, but I'd put the Cleric over the Druid overall (many would disagree).

It could be reasoned logically that a HELPFUL Cleric brings more to the party than anyone else, but

a Cleric that focuses on being a fighter or trying to be a better fighter than the fighter, in an extended dungeon (where you don't have the wimpy...we fight one encounter and then are done for the day...aka...six minute day...) is absolutely useless to the party in general. No one wants to really party with that Cleric since he tries to steal the limelight, runs out of spells whilst being selfish...and ends up really not helping anyone in the long run. That type of Cleric probably brings the LEAST to the party...which is ironic considering what people are discussing.

D&D is a TEAM dynamic game. If you want to know who brings the most to the party, then it's who ACTUALLY BRINGS something to the party. This is part of where 4e (I know, many hate that game, but just listen) tries to help people understand. Classes are supposed to help that party synergy. So, Fighters aren't just there to fight, they are there to protect others, to try to enable those spellcasters to be able to cast their spells uninterrupted and to enable the casters to survive to be the killing machines they are. The Spellcasters are supposed to learn spell resource management, so they don't blow their entire load trying to be a fighter, but use spells selectively so that they can last that week in the dungeon where they don't get that chance to recharge...and at the same time select spells useful enough so that they can use them in any situation...INCLUDING THOSE OUTSIDE OF COMBAT.

I'd take a spellcaster that is able to use their spells to figure out a puzzle and get us through it because they were smart enough to memorize the right spells anyday over some spellcaster that can buff themselves so that they can try to cut down a few goblins with their sword. Any Fighter can mow down goblins...however no fighter can fly up and then go through a wall to pull the lever above in another room and let us continue onwards...at least not without the right equipment.

So, yes, maybe the discussion isn't about group dynamics, but I think if you want to discuss which ones are useful and what they bring to the party...you absolutely HAVE to include the group dynamic and what each one brings to the party in the first place...as well as what is the best way to have everyone work together.

 

[kitcik]

If by "items" you include that to mean spells? Deal. Wizards don't create spells. They simply learn them from someone else. So let's limit Wizards to spell they actually created...and they are powerless. The assumption for the duel is you get access to everything allowed by RAW. For non casters, this means you can have custom items created with any and all spells that you want. It's the same fiat (authorative order) Jkaron uses to say somehow the Wizard should be considered as having every single spell in the Wizard's spell book. If you're going to make absurd assumptions, it goes both ways.

So wait, I propose caster vs. non-caster where the caster can't have spells, and both characters can only have items they created themselves, and this still isn't enough of a nerf to even them up - you need to add "non casters... have custom items created with any and all spells you want."

So basically, you are saying that a non-caster can be better than a caster if the non-caster can use unlimited spells cast by an NPC caster and the caster cannot use spells. To me, you have just proved the tier rankings.

To you, who knows? Likely this proves the world is flat or something.

 

[kitcik]

If it's a spellcaster who's been memorizing spells and using them to be a better fighter then the fighter?

Probably quite a bit more then the spellcaster who's out of spells. It's the spellcaster who's been doing all that fighting instead of using the resources otherwise.

If it's been a fairshare...probably still more than the spellcaster on average, which would still probably be more than enough to take the spellcaster down.

Let's assume it's been a fairshare, both characters are low on HP, and the caster is a cleric has one Heal left.

Or it's a druid, that saved one wildshape (and it's inherent healing).

The point is that there are any number of spells (and mine are certainly not the best examples) that can suddenly "save the day" for the caster, while the fighter is a one trick pony.

If the fighter has used up his daily flight capability, a simple fly spell could be an autowin for the caster.

 

[GreyLord]

Let's assume it's been a fairshare, both characters are low on HP, and the caster is a cleric has one Heal left.

Or it's a druid, that saved one wildshape (and it's inherent healing).

The point is that there are any number of spells (and mine are certainly not the best examples) that can suddenly "save the day" for the caster, while the fighter is a one trick pony.

If the fighter has used up his daily flight capability, a simple fly spell could be an autowin for the caster.

Healing is cheap. If the Caster was a selfish prick, you better believe I'd have a potion or two of healing kept as well. Anyone in a party that had a Cleric or Druid that didn't heal would have some other way to heal besides them...if not, simply let those two classes be the fighter, step back and let them fight all the hordes until they have cast all their spells. If you don't like them, backstab them if you're a thief, assassinate them if your an assassin, or simply grapple and strangle them to death if you are a fighter or monk.

Ironic thought, sunder weapon. Does a casters mouth and hands count as weapons? If so, break their dang hands and mouth...or if you count a head and neck...break their neck...

Of course that's more the realm of Evil DM and roleplay rather than direct rules...

Flight?

I suppose the caster could cast a spell and fly away...and no longer be part fo the party...but then...what's the point...is the caster just playing a solo game with himself?

If he want's to engage the fighter...he better hope the fighter didn't have archery skills or I'd probably NOT want to spend my last spell on fly...better to have something a little better against bows and arrows if I were taking on someone who could have a high BAB, a high Strength, and lob missiles at me.

 

[Dandu]

However, due to their armor they can wear by class, as well as a nice HP (not as nice as the fighter, but nice), the Cleric can be a better fighter than a fighter for a few fights.

Are you familiar with Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell? It's a feat that allows a cleric to persiste spells using Turn Undead attempts to reduce the metamagic feat's level adjustment. Clerics built to take advantage of it can walk around with their best spells up all day.

Selfish? I don't know, Divine Power and Rigtheous Might are pretty hard to share with the Fighter considering that they're personal range spells. Besides, they also get to persist group buffs like Mass Lesser Vigor.

HOWEVER, after those few fights, the Cleric's out of spells, whilst the fighter still can keep on ticking. That's the Fighter's strength, to be able to keep going...and going...and going naturally without the fear of running out of spells.

Forgive me for being blunt, but this does remind me of W. Somerset Maugham when he said that "Only a mediocre person is always at his best."

Basically, the way I see it, fighters are always going to be active as long as they have a source of healing and a way to remove debilitating effects, but they still don't have the "big guns" so to speak.

Plus, if after a large battle the spellcasters are nearly out of juice, I suspect it would be best to just rest and refuel rather than continue pressing on even if the fighter is at full power, since an unbuffed fighter is like infantry without fire support.

D&D is a TEAM dynamic game. If you want to know who brings the most to the party, then it's who ACTUALLY BRINGS something to the party. This is part of where 4e (I know, many hate that game, but just listen) tries to help people understand. Classes are supposed to help that party synergy. So, Fighters aren't just there to fight, they are there to protect others, to try to enable those spellcasters to be able to cast their spells uninterrupted and to enable the casters to survive to be the killing machines they are.

I agree with your analysis of the Fighter's role. Now here's the question: can other classes do it better than the fighter?

 

[Arrowhawk]

... which is a house rule.

It's really as simple as that.

Show me in any rule book where it says you are obligated to provide a Wizard with any and all spells a Wizard wants to learn, whenever they want to learn them. Because this is the basis of JKaron's Tier system. Without that requirement, his Tier system crumbles like a house of cards.

If you can't provide a WotC document that mandates this requirement, it's not a house rule...and it's as simple as that.