A simple fix to balance fighters vs. casters ?

[kitcik]

Healing is cheap. If the Caster was a selfish prick, you better believe I'd have a potion or two of healing kept as well. Anyone in a party that had a Cleric or Druid that didn't heal would have some other way to heal besides them...if not, simply let those two classes be the fighter, step back and let them fight all the hordes until they have cast all their spells. If you don't like them, backstab them if you're a thief, assassinate them if your an assassin, or simply grapple and strangle them to death if you are a fighter or monk.

Ironic thought, sunder weapon. Does a casters mouth and hands count as weapons? If so, break their dang hands and mouth...or if you count a head and neck...break their neck...

Of course that's more the realm of Evil DM and roleplay rather than direct rules...

Flight?

I suppose the caster could cast a spell and fly away...and no longer be part fo the party...but then...what's the point...is the caster just playing a solo game with himself?

If he want's to engage the fighter...he better hope the fighter didn't have archery skills or I'd probably NOT want to spend my last spell on fly...better to have something a little better against bows and arrows if I were taking on someone who could have a high BAB, a high Strength, and lob missiles at me.

Now you've gone to the level of ridiculousness. OK, you saved your healing potion, which somehow heals you equal to a Heal spell. I guess I saved a few charges on my staff of <spell that defeats fighters>. The debate is on which class is "stronger" "more capable" (something like that), not on who has the better equipment. The fact that a caster that is almost spent can still have an "I win" button, while the fighter cannot - that is the point. You have said nothing to deny this basic fact, just prattled on about your meaningless equipment.

As far as flying, I fly above your archery range and shoot Shrunk boulders out of my pea shooter at you. Or anything else I feel like dropping from that range.

 

[Ettin]

Also, I like the dynamic of the increasing power of spellcasters, and each class having different strengths and weaknesses. If everyone was the same, it would make life boring, same goes for roleplaying.

I agree. I know if my fighter couldn't be overshadowed by a cleric who can do my job and cast spells, I would be so bored you could use me as a chair back.

 

[GreyLord]

Now you've gone to the level of ridiculousness. OK, you saved your healing potion, which somehow heals you equal to a Heal spell. I guess I saved a few charges on my staff of <spell that defeats fighters>. The debate is on which class is "stronger" "more capable" (something like that), not on who has the better equipment. The fact that a caster that is almost spent can still have an "I win" button, while the fighter cannot - that is the point. You have said nothing to deny this basic fact, just prattled on about your meaningless equipment.

As far as flying, I fly above your archery range and shoot Shrunk boulders out of my pea shooter at you. Or anything else I feel like dropping from that range.

He'll walk to a cave before you hit him with how bad your BAB is combined with the range of how far you are dropping the rocks.

Or some shelter of some sort. That is unless you are playing a Fighter with a 3 wisdom...in which case he might just stand outside in a hailstorm too.

What, you expect someone just to sit around let you drop things on them....

Riiiight. I'm afraid I don't normally have that level of incompetancy in players...and don't normally think they would expect that out of me.

Though I suppose I could have them just stand there...in the open...where they could be picked off by orcs, goblins, or even simply lightning streaking from the sky to hit the highest point on the plain...which seeing the caster is now flying would be the caster.

More likely they are in a dungeon...where you'll hit your head before you fly out of range...

Let's use at least a little common sense. There are a LOT better spells than fly as an I win type spell...unless you are fighting flesh statues that don't move on an open plain with nothing at all nearby.

Though in that case you probably have worse problems than fighting each other to worry about...at least in D&D.

 

[Dandu]

Suggestion would have probably been a better choice.

 

[Visigani]

Yes, for some reason these arguments assume each class can use class abilities and wealth when trying to determine what a class is capable of if all other things are equal. What a shocker.

The fighter has free access to magical weapons, armor, and gear in all contests I have seen or participated in. I would say that being able to find anything is applied fairly. It just happens that what the fighter finds (equipment) sucks in comparison to what the wizard finds (spells).

One could contrive a contest that goes "Olidimarra banishes the Fighter and Wizard to a plane but steals their equipment."

Who wins this contest? It's perfectly within reason in the D&D universe, this could actually happen. The deity did nothing to the Wizard that he did not also do to the Fighter... and the Wizard promptly ensorcells the Fighter and makes him cry.

These contests never read that for the reason that - hold onto your hat - they prove nothing other than "if you take away a class' abilities, they suck."

Any class can be made to fail via fiat. That is why these sorts of scenarios generally assume that
1. Classes get to use their abilities.
2. Anything that is in the allowed books can be found by the parties involved.
3. There is no favoritism towards one class or another - ie, no fighting in AMFs, everyone is well rested and at full HP, and so forth.

And probably a few more that I'm forgetting, but I trust you get the point. By allowing each class to perform at its maximum, you can see what they are capable of.

Expand your consciousness Dandu.

If both the dolphin and you have access to scuba gear... who is going to win the swimming contest? You both have the same benefits, have access to the same resources.. why would the dolphin win? How can this contest possibly be lopsided?



I'm saying do the REVERSE. Strictly pare down what the Wizard has access to. A Scroll of Timestop might be found on every street corner.... but is it likely?

This is what I mean by Intelligent Stopgap. The Fighter has his pre-built in and it's very easy to codify because virtually everything about the fighter is numerical, virtually all of his interactions are numbers based. He's swung at or he swings.

The Fighter lives in the MMO.

The Wizard lives in the storybook. He can cast "animate rope". Think about that single spell. Think about the obcene number of options and things you could do with JUST that spell.


A first level wizard in the real world would be recognized as a God if he had access to just the spells in the SRD.


Because of the intelligent things you can do with these spells, because of their untold options... you have to have an intelligent stopgap to work AGAINST them.

All of these contests assume no such stopgap.

Pun Pun is a great example of this. From what I understand it completely follows the rules. As do these Wizard contests. However, no one sane would let someone seriously do this at the table.


Fighters do not have these limitless untold options and come out of the box packaged in a relatively balanced fashion because the things they do are largely numerical.



See what I'm getting at here? The DM exists to temper the Wizard's ability because the Wizard by its very nature MUST have a plethora of options. You've said yourself that damage is the weakest aspect of the Wizard and of course you are correct because the Wizard's strength stems not from the numerical, but from the fantastical "What can I do with this?".


These contests presume there's no DM there to spite the Wizard, to drain his spells, to make him think, to cause him consternation, to WEAKEN him and LIMIT those multitudinous options.

 

[kitcik]

He'll walk to a cave before you hit him with how bad your BAB is combined with the range of how far you are dropping the rocks.

Or some shelter of some sort. That is unless you are playing a Fighter with a 3 wisdom...in which case he might just stand outside in a hailstorm too.

What, you expect someone just to sit around let you drop things on them....

Riiiight. I'm afraid I don't normally have that level of incompetancy in players...and don't normally think they would expect that out of me.

Though I suppose I could have them just stand there...in the open...where they could be picked off by orcs, goblins, or even simply lightning streaking from the sky to hit the highest point on the plain...which seeing the caster is now flying would be the caster.

More likely they are in a dungeon...where you'll hit your head before you fly out of range...

Let's use at least a little common sense. There are a LOT better spells than fly as an I win type spell...unless you are fighting flesh statues that don't move on an open plain with nothing at all nearby.

Though in that case you probably have worse problems than fighting each other to worry about...at least in D&D.

See below, and please address this point (noting the parenthetical). So far, you have proved my point by ignoring the elephant in the room as stated below.

The point is that there are any number of spells (and mine are certainly not the best examples) that can suddenly "save the day" for the caster, while the fighter is a one trick pony.

The fact that a caster that is almost spent can still have an "I win" button, while the fighter cannot - that is the point. You have said nothing to deny this basic fact, just prattled on about your meaningless equipment.

 

[kitcik]

Expand your consciousness Dandu.

If both the dolphin and you have access to scuba gear... who is going to win the swimming contest? You both have the same benefits, have access to the same resources.. why would the dolphin win? How can this contest possibly be lopsided?



I'm saying do the REVERSE. Strictly pare down what the Wizard has access to. A Scroll of Timestop might be found on every street corner.... but is it likely?

This is what I mean by Intelligent Stopgap. The Fighter has his pre-built in and it's very easy to codify because virtually everything about the fighter is numerical, virtually all of his interactions are numbers based. He's swung at or he swings.

The Fighter lives in the MMO.

The Wizard lives in the storybook. He can cast "animate rope". Think about that single spell. Think about the obcene number of options and things you could do with JUST that spell.


A first level wizard in the real world would be recognized as a God if he had access to just the spells in the SRD.


Because of the intelligent things you can do with these spells, because of their untold options... you have to have an intelligent stopgap to work AGAINST them.

All of these contests assume no such stopgap.

Pun Pun is a great example of this. From what I understand it completely follows the rules. As do these Wizard contests. However, no one sane would let someone seriously do this at the table.


Fighters do not have these limitless untold options and come out of the box packaged in a relatively balanced fashion because the things they do are largely numerical.



See what I'm getting at here? The DM exists to temper the Wizard's ability because the Wizard by its very nature MUST have a plethora of options. You've said yourself that damage is the weakest aspect of the Wizard and of course you are correct because the Wizard's strength stems not from the numerical, but from the fantastical "What can I do with this?".


These contests presume there's no DM there to spite the Wizard, to drain his spells, to make him think, to cause him consternation, to WEAKEN him and LIMIT those multitudinous options.

But you've just proved the point...

Because of these "limitless options" the wizard is a "higher tier" class than the fighter and the DM must actively try to limit the wizard (if they wish for balance) while no such effort is required with respect to the fighter. QED.

 

[GreyLord]

there are several problems with these arguments however, not that anyone ever realizes or listens when they are all in favor of these ridiculous things.

First off, despite me using the MMORPG idea...it isn't one. It's a Roleplaying game. Roleplaying should be there by default. Because of this, classes are balanced NOT because of how they are in combat, but overall.

How does this play in, because of various other factors. That it's a roleplaying game is the biggest and most important one however.

Second, You are all assuming higher level characters. A second level wizard won't have a third level spell unless they find the scroll to it typically. They have to grow into it. A sixth level druid has 11 spells, 5 of which are merely 0 level meaning 6 leveled spells.


Third, because it's an RPG and a game based on team dynamics, why waste the wizards or druid's spells on becoming a fighter, or a thief at these levels, especially in an extended dungeon where you won't be able to recharge...as one could put it, unless you do that leave the dungeon and expect everything to stay the same thing.

Fourth, you combine it all, and you get where every character and every class has their use. Fighters are extremely powerful at lower levels in relation to wizards. In an actual Roleplaying game where you face traps, diplomacy, survive the environment, Rogues, Bards and Rangers can be the highest tier characters at lower levels.

Sure, IF you survive as a spellcaster you gain some pretty powerful stuff, I LIKE that, but you have to survive first. People are all talking combat like it's the only thing, but roleplaying covers more than that. In addition, someone who centers on themselves and attacks other players is going to find themselves rapidly without a group to play with.

So the point I've been trying to make which I think everyone is missing is that it's actually a roleplaying game. It's a team game. It's one where cooperation is required to survive between players.

When that stops being necessary, the game typically breaks down and someone finds themselves playing with....themselves.

Now granted, this thread was about changing it so that high level fighters are "repaired." After risking dying with d4 HP at first level, limited spells, and the entire wreckage, I WANT spellcasters to be the ultimate powerful class at high levels, that's part of the entire dynamic. At that point everyone has lots of magic and equipment anyways. It still shouldn't be about who's more powerful.

When the fighter was protecting the first level wizard, why complain about the person playing the wizard? They had their role and place.

The same still exists. That rogue that has the sword of death to any Cleric, all he has to do is hit the Cleric and each hit the cleric has to make a save or die...well that Cleric is protected by someone with a high perception (you hope). That Warrior with a sword that makes him immune to all magic, well you have a fighter to stop him still while the wizard tries to use the environment instead.

There are still ways for Parties to play the game and it to have a place for everyone...but in the end...if it truly becomes a one person show...that really is a boring RPG session.

 

[Visigani]

But you've just proved the point...

Because of these "limitless options" the wizard is a "higher tier" class than the fighter and the DM must actively try to limit the wizard (if they wish for balance) while no such effort is required with respect to the fighter. QED.

"Higher Tier". That is the religion found on these boards.


Where you see "Higher Tier" I see "Development Failure".


Why not call them the classes where the developers failed the most? I mean... that IS the assessment, right? Because really tier is an idiot of how much X class can wreck the game....



But see, I don't think it's that. I think the Tier system is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, more about masturbation than anything else.

The people who play these kinds of games frequently identify with weak intelligent people.

But when you get right down to it... it's not Wizards who are the top tier... it's Clerics, maybe Druids... yet here we are... week after week... going on about how the Wizard would kick the big Strong fighters ass....

 

[kitcik]

First, let me say that I agree with the spirit of a lot of this and I think we have a lot of common ground.

Second, You are all assuming higher level characters. A second level wizard won't have a third level spell unless they find the scroll to it typically. They have to grow into it. A sixth level druid has 11 spells, 5 of which are merely 0 level meaning 6 leveled spells.

This is true. I have seen good arguments both ways as to which class is best at low levels. I will say that casters "reign" (more below) after about 12th level with certainty.

Third, because it's an RPG and a game based on team dynamics, why waste the wizards or druid's spells on becoming a fighter, or a thief at these levels, especially in an extended dungeon where you won't be able to recharge...as one could put it, unless you do that leave the dungeon and expect everything to stay the same thing.

The point is that, at higher levels, you could easily have a fighterless party, but you could not have a casterless party (unless the DM weakened CR). It is just one more example of the options a caster has.

Sure, IF you survive as a spellcaster you gain some pretty powerful stuff, I LIKE that, but you have to survive first. People are all talking combat like it's the only thing, but roleplaying covers more than that.

The thing about this is, fighters can only do one thing, rogues maybe 1 and a half. Casters can do everything. So, a larger variety of challenges only allows the caster to shine more. "Find Traps" "Suggestion" etc. obviate the roguish & social skills of other classes at higher levels when casters have plenty of spells and scrolls. This was far less the case in 1E for a variety of reasons.

So the point I've been trying to make which I think everyone is missing is that it's actually a roleplaying game. It's a team game. It's one where cooperation is required to survive between players.

When that stops being necessary, the game typically breaks down and someone finds themselves playing with....themselves.

Agreed. The thing is, at lower levels you must cooperate. At higher levels, the fighter becomes less and less necessary and contributes less and less to the group. Bummer to play the fighter and watch yourself become superfluous.

There are still ways for Parties to play the game and it to have a place for everyone...but in the end...if it truly becomes a one person show...that really is a boring RPG session.

Exactly, hence the thread.

Yes, a good DM can help this issue in various ways (by nerfing casters and boosting non-casters through access to spells, magic items, types of encounters, etc.). But if they're not subtle, the caster player will feel like they're being singled out for punishment.

It would be better to find a way to cause casters to still need / appreciate non-casters at high levels through the straight mechanics of the classes.