A simple fix to balance fighters vs. casters ?

[Arrowhawk]

The tier system is an informed opinion, not a fiat. If opinions are fiats to you, well, you must be living an oppressed life.

Do you understand what a fiat is and how it is being used in JKaron's assumptions?

 

[Dandu]

Arrowhawk, can the sorcerer of a barbarian tribe which has no other arcane spellcasters learn spells after he levels up from an epic battle involving a goblin horde?

 

[Meatboy]

Really my personal opinion of this is that dnd is a game about magic. As you level up regardless of class what you are really doing is increasing the overall "magic" of the campaign. The heroes start somewhat grounded in reality going up against mundane threats (orcs, goblins, pit traps etc) as they go along they accrue magic items and go on to face progressively more mystical threats ogres -> mindflayers -> dragons/beholders -> demons/gods.

The thing is fighters and their ilk are inherently grounded in what we might think of as realistic. Even the BEST fighter EVER!!! will be limited when faced with arcane threats. Sure they might be able to mow down 1000 + first level dudes. But they cannot fight giants or demons or anything high level unless they too have magic. Wizards are not limited in this way because they are not grounded in reality the way fighters are they are infact inherently magical.

As long as dnd is a game based around facing and overcoming ever more magical challenges characters or classes which are not magical will be at a disadvantage.

 

[GreyLord]

I agree with your analysis of the Fighter's role. Now here's the question: can other classes do it better than the fighter?

On the short term yes, on the long term...no.

This is why in 4e there was a push to do away with the one encounter day. Even two or three sometimes is too short.

In the movies...Do you see Conan go to the dungeon and after 6 minutes call it quits?

Sometimes adventurers are in the dungeon or adventure for days. Also, enemies aren't stupid, though many play them that way. Goblin guards killed at an entrance don't just leave an entrance unguarded after that forever after...somone discovers what happened, more are sent to guard, and others are sent out for vengeance. You don't get that chance to recover...

That's where the Warriors come in.

Plus, anyone who doesn't want to play as a group or in a group and wants to play a solo spellcaster can go play with themselves in the corner all they want...but most want someone who can play with everyone else.

Everyone complains about casters at the upper levels, but the thing is, casters have to GET UP TO THOSE LEVELS first.

The dynamic would be more like Fighters are great at the lower levels. Most casters will die in relation to the fighters at low level. At high level, if I am a Wizard, I want to have that power to be able to crumble an entire city at my whim...but then by that point, I'm high level, and yes, I would want my power to overshadow that of a normal fighter.

If one wants to destroy the Wizard or Cleric or Druid (but why a Druid...they should't be inherently good OR evil) then there should be a quest that requires something extreme...perhaps to give that fighter the special item that allows them to fight the spellcaster on equal ground.

Heroes in books normally have to find that special item or they'll be toast as well. I like that dynamic.

It's sort of a reward for those who played that 1st level Wizard that would get squashed after their two spells were cast if it weren't for the Fighter to protect them, or the Cleric that had to choose which spell to cast, one to aid in healing or one to aid in battle. They get that all power at the end of the powerups...after playing the weaker guy at first.

However, it should be remembered there's ALWAYS that equalizing dynamic in the adventures. Perhaps it's that one Ring some halfling will toss into the fire. Sure you could toast Aragorn with a word...but that halfling will catch you by surprise. Or maybe it's that magical Sword conan finds which makes him completely immune to any magic you cast. Sure you can annihilate his companion, but you better have someone to protect you against Conan or you'll simply be another one of the many deaths to his name.

Okay...I got side tracked. Yes, I do like the dynamics of spellcasters getting more powerful...BUT I think Fighters have their place and purpose and even that Cleric or another can't really replace them. I've seen people try, but most of those get banned (actually all of them have been banned from every group I've ever seen) for being really selfish and not good team players.

And that's the REAL importance...is that you should be a good team player and play as a group. Every character has different strengths and abilities. An RPG shouldn't be purely about combat, and a spellcaster that concentrates solely on that is wasting a ton of potential. I'd rather have a Fighter that can kill the things, and a spellcaster that can save us from being killed from that infamous puzzle by using the right spells at the right time then some cleric that thinks they are a better fighter than a fighter any day of the week.

 

[Dandu]

On the short term yes, on the long term...no.

Would you mind expanding on how a cleric cannot replace a fighter in the long term? (Just to be clear, I am talking about a party where the fighter role is taken up by a cleric, not a party where there is a cleric and a fighter.)

The dynamic would be more like Fighters are great at the lower levels. Most casters will die in relation to the fighters at low level.

Actually, from my experience in groups, casters do not do horribly at lower levels. Perhaps it is because I build well, but all my spellcasters, even at low levels, contribute meaningfully to the groups they are in by debuffing enemies and providing support to other party members.

Okay...I got side tracked. Yes, I do like the dynamics of spellcasters getting more powerful...BUT I think Fighters have their place and purpose and even that Cleric or another can't really replace them.

Again, I'd love to talk more about this. Let's focus on the mechanics for a moment, shall we?

What mechanically prevents a cleric from replacing a fighter?

I've seen people try, but most of those get banned (actually all of them have been banned from every group I've ever seen) for being really selfish and not good team players.

If you are talking about people who try to upstage others, I agree that that is poor form. If you are talking about people who decided "I don't want to play a fighter, I'm going to play a cleric instead" I fail to see what is selfish or bad about that.

 

[GreyLord]

Would you mind expanding on how a cleric cannot replace a fighter in the long term? (Just to be clear, I am talking about a party where the fighter role is taken up by a cleric, not a party where there is a cleric and a fighter.)


Actually, from my experience in groups, casters do not do horribly at lower levels. Perhaps it is because I build well, but all my spellcasters, even at low levels, contribute meaningfully to the groups they are in by debuffing enemies and providing support to other party members.


Again, I'd love to talk more about this. Let's focus on the mechanics for a moment, shall we?

What mechanically prevents a cleric from replacing a fighter?

If you are talking about people who try to upstage others, I agree that that is poor form. If you are talking about people who decided "I don't want to play a fighter, I'm going to play a cleric instead" I fail to see what is selfish or bad about that.

Well, for starters, they don't have the BAB or the HP, and their spells will run out. If nothing else a good Dispel will ensure their spells will last less time than they expect, as well as a whole slew of other things. Then of course the feats that allow the fighter to grapple and strangle you outright, or any number of other things that the Cleric doesn't get at half that rate. Overall it applies more to someone who roleplays than someone who rollplays for combat only.

We've had this discussion before however, we discovered you hated how our groups played and saw us all as draconian ignorant feebleminded scoundrels (edit: I should toss in a few cuss words you probably think about us who play a certain way as well) who wouldn't allow the freedoms you thought were a given right, you discovered you wouldn't be allowed to play as we saw you as a non-team player and munchkin (it went into what books and races and classes were allowed which you had issues with)...and we all decided we were better off not discussing it at length due to disagreements.

So, there really isn't any reason to go into it again...though I'm not certain whether you recall that discussion or not. It was a few months ago afterall, and included your character Fisticuffs was it?

 

[Arrowhawk]

So wait, I propose caster vs. non-caster where the caster can't have spells, and both characters can only have items they created themselves, and this still isn't enough of a nerf to even them up - you need to add "non casters... have custom items created with any and all spells you want."

So basically, you are saying that a non-caster can be better than a caster if the non-caster can use unlimited spells cast by an NPC caster and the caster cannot use spells. To me, you have just proved the tier rankings.

To you, who knows? Likely this proves the world is flat or something.

I don't understand your response, probably because you've misconstrued something I've said. First and last... the Tier system isn't proven by 1v1 battles. JKaron says that himself.

 

[Dandu]

Well, for starters, they don't have the BAB or the HP, and their spells will run out.

It is true that clerics have medium BAB and d8 hit dice, compared to the fighter's full BAB and d10 hit dice. However, spells like Divine Power grants clerics full BAB, temp HP, and a bonus to Strength, along with some

I agree that clerics run out of spells, but there are ways to prevent that such as through the Divine Metamagic: Persist trick mentioned earlier. This allows them to have much more staying power.

If nothing else a good Dispel will ensure their spells will last less time than they expect, as well as a whole slew of other things.

I would like to note that there are several ways to make dispelling harder. The most immediate is a 4,000 gp item called a Ring of Counterspells. You could also raise your caster level.

We've had this discussion before however, we discovered you hated how our groups played and saw us all as draconian ignorant feebleminded scoundrels who wouldn't allow the freedoms you thought were a given right, you discovered you wouldn't be allowed to play as we saw you as and saw you as a non-team player and munchkin (it went into what books and races and classes were allowed which you had issues with)...and we all decided we were better off not discussing it at length due to disagreements.

I am sorry you feel that way, though I do not remember saying any of those words. If I did, I should very much like to take this time to apologize, though again, I am getting the impression that you are using hyperbole.

See me as a non-team player and munckin all you wish if you prefer; it's no skin off of my nose, or that of my gaming groups (note: plural), which considers me very much a team player. I will give you the munchkin bit, though.

So, there really isn't any reason to go into it again...though I'm not certain whether you recall that discussion or not. It was a few months ago afterall, and included your character Fisticuffs was it?

I believe I do recall it. You were of the opinion that multiclassing was bad for roleplaying and I pointed out you could have a charecter who was multiclassed to Hades and back but who was still fun and flavorful.

 

[GreyLord]

It is true that clerics have medium BAB and d8 hit dice, compared to the fighter's full BAB and d10 hit dice. However, spells like Divine Power grants clerics full BAB, temp HP, and a bonus to Strength, along with some

I agree that clerics run out of spells, but there are ways to prevent that such as through the Divine Metamagic: Persist trick mentioned earlier. This allows them to have much more staying power.

I would like to note that there are several ways to make dispelling harder. The most immediate is a 4,000 gp item called a Ring of Counterspells. You could also raise your caster level.
I am sorry you feel that way, though I do not remember saying any of those words. If I did, I should very much like to take this time to apologize, though again, I am getting the impression that you are using hyperbole.

See me as a non-team player and munckin all you wish if you prefer; it's no skin off of my nose, or that of my gaming groups (note: plural), which considers me very much a team player. I will give you the munchkin bit, though.

I believe I do recall it. You were of the opinion that multiclassing was bad for roleplaying and I pointed out you could have a charecter who was multiclassed to Hades and back but who was still fun and flavorful.

More like racial and MC limitations along with the idea that the DM can disallow books, but close enough. No need to go over that entire discussion again though. Easier just to say been there, done that, let's move onward.

Edit: I should add I don't have a problem with a party going without a fighter, and using someone as a substitute in it's place. If I'm DM'ing I consider it part of the parcel to adapt the adventure to the party, so if they don't have a spellcaster or a warrior, or something else, a good DM should be able to adapt. Sometimes it's harder then others (for example, a heavy trapladen adventure where no one can deal with the traps...that's a little interesting), and I won't give it completely freebie, but I'll make it survivable.

Also, I like the dynamic of the increasing power of spellcasters, and each class having different strengths and weaknesses. If everyone was the same, it would make life boring, same goes for roleplaying.

 

[kitcik]

I don't understand your response, probably because you've misconstrued something I've said. First and last... the Tier system isn't proven by 1v1 battles. JKaron says that himself.

Shocking how everyone misconstrues what you have said when you are wrong. Purely coincidental, I am sure.