A simple fix to balance fighters vs. casters ?

[Arrowhawk]

Problem is all these contests tend to be of the type that benefit the Wizard.

Close, but slightly off. A better description is that there are multiple Spell compinations that can deal with any situation. So the argument is that we'll simply assume (no matter how irrational this assumption is) that the Wizard or Sorc in your campaign will have access to those spell combinations at the exact moment they'll need them, and thus is superior to the Fighter or the Monk.

Who is going to win in a swimming contest, you or the dolphin?

Well, me if I have a submarine and can kill the dolphin with harpoons or sonic weapons. So you see how to solve this problem?

The answer is to simply let a martial class have access to a weapon or usable item that is enchanted with the same spells that a Wizard/Cleric could use to solve the problem. The response to this is that this works for any class and is not specific to the Fighter/Monk. Well....yeah...that's exactly the point. If I let everyone have access to everything they need to deal with any situation...then everyone is equal. Ergo, the Tier system becomes invalid because now everyone is on equal footing: Unlimited access to any magic spell in the game.

I'm sure you'll get someone responding with the query about "Who makes those items?" The response is who cares? The point is I have access to them by the same fiat rules that allows a caster to have access to every spell in the game, and thus I'm equal to anyone else in the game.

Further, there is a TON of presumption in favor of the Wizard. The Wizard is assumed to be fully rested, have access to any and all spells at all times

That's exactly right. And if we level the playing field and say my X class has access to any magic item...including those which can be custom made with the spell needed...then suddenly the Tier system comes crashing down. Remember, I'm not breaking the rules...I'm simply using the right of fiat and the DM's ability to grant items to PC's to allow X class to have exactly the Shield or Amulet or Ring or Boots or Potion that they need to solve the problem.

Just because the game says you CAN find something doesn't mean you WILL find something.

I tried that rationale and it's automatically dismissed as house ruling..dispite the RAW allow you to restrict things and create the entire universe that your players exist in. Essentially the "house rule" argument is a way for people to say you haven't solved the problem and continue to tout the Tier system as meaningful and valid.

This benefit is never granted the fighter.

It is...but its never properly employed. Per RAW, you can have custom items made. Well, make custom items with every spell in the game. No reason to limit yourself to just those unique or standard items the game gives you.

The Wizard is granted absolute fiat when it comes to anything pertaining to his class while INTENTIONALLY leaving out the intelligent stopgap that exists to prevent abuses.

Well, as I said, people dismiss this by calling it a "house rule" to employ such measures. The point that they cling to is that since by RAW, this could happen it must be taken as being a valid way to compare the classes. I believe someone tried to create a Tier ranking on likelihood of classes becoming more powerful...but I haven't seen it.

 

[kitcik]

Who is going to win in a swimming contest, you or the dolphin?

The problem is, when you ask the question: "Who is going to win a melee contest, the caster or the non-caster?" the answer is, once you reach say 12th level, the caster. The caster is capable of doing every non-caster's job better than they are.

 

[Dandu]

But only if the caster is allowed to have spells, which has been proven to be unfair.

Edit: Relax, Arrowhawk, that was referring to something Visigani said. No need for you to call upon the straw man today.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

The point is I have access to them by the same fiat rules that allows a caster to have access to every spell in the game, and thus I'm equal to anyone else in the game.

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

 

[Dandu]

Inconceivable!

 

[kitcik]

OK, so let's have the 20th level caster and the 20th level melee class du jour face off with the following rules:

No spells may be cast within 48 hours of the combat or during the combat.

You can only use items you created yourself.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

(T)he following rules:

No spells may be cast within 48 hours of the combat or during the combat.

You can only use items you created yourself.

watch out for the fiat! It can lay down the hurt.

 

[GreyLord]

There is a good point in this, many always assume that the caster is well rested and has all their spells. How about a week of adventuring with no time to really get a good nights rest. The caster probably has gone through most of their spells at that point, they both have penalties...and when attacked it's probable that the martial class would have the upper hand (as all those pretty spells to give the wizard that upper hand probably were burned off the by wizard already since they were trying to show up the martial class by using those spells in the first place rather than using party dynamics to cooperate and use that synergy to make the party a more powerful group as a whole).

Just a thought.

 

[Arrowhawk]

OK, so let's have the 20th level caster and the 20th level melee class du jour face off with the following rules:

No spells may be cast within 48 hours of the combat or during the combat.

You can only use items you created yourself.

If by "items" you include that to mean spells? Deal. Wizards don't create spells. They simply learn them from someone else. So let's limit Wizards to spell they actually created...and they are powerless. The assumption for the duel is you get access to everything allowed by RAW. For non casters, this means you can have custom items created with any and all spells that you want. It's the same fiat (authorative order) Jkaron uses to say somehow the Wizard should be considered as having every single spell in the Wizard's spell book. If you're going to make absurd assumptions, it goes both ways.

Now...you can always house rule that Wizards have access to all their spells but Fighters don't have access to custom magic items which use the existing spells (which the RAW specifically allows).

This debate is really pointless. The real value of JKaron's tier system is not that it's valid, but that it exposes the problems DM's are faced with at higher level if they don't actively monitor the flow of magic spells/and items. Except that people automatically know to limit access to magic items...yet they can't seem to get their heads around limiting availability/access to spells.

Although unintended, Jkaron's tier system also exposes the problems with 3.5 with regards to min/maxing. Let's ignore spells and just focus on Skills. It's possible to create specialists whose ability to Disarm traps or Diplomacy officials far beyond what is healthy for the game. 3.5 puts DM's in the position of suddenly have to use DM by fiat to nerf any number of PC abilities to keep games from going off the tracks.

The simple fact is that in any RPG's where characters have more powers as they level it becomes harder for the GM to account for everything. The problem is magnified in games which encourage/faciliatate min/maxing-optimization. Any game that introduces unfettered "magic" is going to have this problem. Now as a DM, ask yourself if the game gives you tools to keep Spell use from getting out of control?

 

[Arrowhawk]

There is a good point in this, many always assume that the caster is well rested and has all their spells. How about a week of adventuring with no time to really get a good nights rest. The caster probably has gone through most of their spells at that point, they both have penalties...and when attacked it's probable that the martial class would have the upper hand (as all those pretty spells to give the wizard that upper hand probably were burned off the by wizard already since they were trying to show up the martial class by using those spells in the first place rather than using party dynamics to cooperate and use that synergy to make the party a more powerful group as a whole).

Just a thought.

No, you're doing it wrong. Any scenario where the spell caster doesn't have access to every and all spells at all times...is house ruling i.e. arbitrarily cheating to nerf the Wizard in his context. You're specifically not allowed to introduce any situation or scenario where the Wizard isn't the most powerful character at all times. Using logic or requiring any consistency in how you treat the characters is also strictly forbidden unless it favors the Wizard.

Remember, Spells are "magic" which means that by definition they don't have to obey any internal conistency or logic. Any author for WotC can write a spell to do anything anyone has ever thought of...it's "magic" afterall. Wizards are automatically the most powerful classes because they have unfettered access to "magic" which is master of all possibilities. Wizards have access to all spells...all the time (don't question it, just accept it). But we won't say the spells are unbalanced...we'll just say the Wizard is. Any attempt to limit the Wizards access to any and all spells is a "house rule" thereby giving your players grounds for complaining and walking out on you.

This is Internet Logic 101. Resistence is futile.