D&D 5E A simple houserule for martial/caster balance.

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Every survey I have seen lists Fighter as the most often played class and that is my anecdotal experience as well in games I have played personally. It could all be "fake news" and part of some grand conspiracy against Fighters but I don't think it is.

Do you have any sources suggesting this is not true?

Because new players are subject to the crappy fighter before they're allowed to make a "real" character.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So they are under exception of viewing casters as already balanced. The solution there is to show them the truth.

You may even find that perhaps the reason they don’t like martials currently is because they feel like they are weak compared to casters.

Out of curiosity do they play in tier 3 and 4 regularly?

They like martials fine. But if they're playing a spellcaster, they don't want most of the spells in the book removed.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I'm reminded of a grognard I know who scoffs at Wizards even being able to use crossbows. "In my day, when a wizard ran out of spells they threw darts...or oil!"

Yeah. Darts. That's a great way to feel like you're backing up the team. Granted, monsters had a lot less hit points back then, you probably could kill the average Orc with a dart.

You joke, but darts had to be nerfed in Combat and Tactics! The high rate of attack led to dart specialists outdamaging basically everything else, because that d3 damage didnt matter when you attacked 6 times a round and added your strength, specialization, etc on each damage roll!

 

[jgsugden]

Simply cap spells known to 4th level or less (maybe 5th level or less). Casters can keep the slots.

Thoughts?

Possibly create magical items that allow casters access to higher level spells for atunement and sufficient class level.

Spells are not really 9 levels deep. 1st and 2nd level spells share a similar power level, but there is a jump in power, generally speakimng, with 3rd level spells. Then, 3rd through 5th level spells are similar in power levels with only slight gradiation, but there is a substantial leap again with 6th level spells. 6th through 8th are one more grouping, and then they give 9th level spells a bit of a bump again. I've tested out eliminating the 9 levels of gradiation and only having 4 spell levels where 1 and 2 combine, 3 through 5 combine, 6 through 8 combine, and 9th remains alone - with the new lowest level spells available at 1st, the next tier available at 5th, the third tier at 11th and the final tier at 17th ... and then just compacting all the slots available into these 4 tiers. It tweaked the balance a bit (there was less 'upcasting', people could spam 2nd and 5th level spells), but it was not actually that significant of a change.

To that end, such a system as you propose might as well go up to 5th level spells. What 5th level spells break the bank for you? And do you really want to eliminate Raise Dead?

To me, the solution to these perceived balance problems are mechanics added to martial classes that allow them to physically engage with their environment better. The prootype for a high level fighter, barbarain, rogue, or other physical fighter would be comic book characters like Captain America, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Black Knight, Batman, Shang-chi, The Punisher, Iron Man, etc... When they fight, they use their tools well, but it is often the way they use their environments to their advantage that is evocative and powerful in combat. They throw sand to blind, flip tables onto foes, swing from the chandeliers (from the chandeliers), etc...

If I were building the 6E martial classes in an effort to 'bring them up' to spellcasters, I would:

1.) Give them environment interacting abilities that allow them to apply conditions to enemies, alter the battlefield, and provide other battlefield control elements. However, it would not be how it was done in 4E.
2.) Give them greater durability than spellcasting classes in terms of saving throws and resistances. Most of these would be treiggered abilities they could call upon a limited number of times to give them the feel of them digging in and calling upon their inner reserves as opposed to passive benefits that we take for granted.
3.) Give them legendary actions as they advance in level, allowing them to do more in combat over a round. Fighters would get to do more damaing attacks (attacking faster would be their schtick), barbaians would be able to break the environment around them and provide battlefield control, rogues would be able to control their place in the battlefield (by moving, avoiding, hiding, misleading, etc...)
4.) Putting the damage potential of melee classes per round on par with the better spells of the spellcasting classes. A fighter, rogue and barbarian should be able to doeal as much damage as a disintegrate spell when it becomes available to the wizard.

 

[FrogReaver]

They like martials fine. But if they're playing a spellcaster, they don't want most of the spells in the book removed.

Again, the solution is to show them the truth about tier 3 and 4 casters being unbalanced. Once they realize how unbalanced they will not want to use the unbalanced spells.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Do you think any caster player is going to be ok with, "you caster classes are capped at level 6. The rest of you are fine"?

How often do we hear from them "oh balance doesnt matter! your chump fighter is just as important to the party's success as Angel Summoner!". What's wrong with the shoe on the other foot then?

In Savage Worlds, you need to spend the equivalent of a feat to just be able to cast. You have to build up your casting skill, and have to roll to cast. You get 3 powers to start (for a typical wizard) and spend a feat for each additional 2 you learn. That's what balance looks like. D&D is so caster centric it's a joke that there's non-caster classes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Again, the solution is to show them the truth about tier 3 and 4 casters being unbalanced. Once they realize how unbalanced they will not want to use the unbalanced spells.

Yeah, for me these things just generally don't come up much. The most OP character in my last campaign was a 14th level rage barbarian with all the fixins'.

Now, I think the best way to address this imbalance issue is to enhance the martials, coupled with targeted nerfs (not banning) of certain spells. Level Up does this for me nearly perfectly.

 

[TwoSix]

Again, the solution is to show them the truth about tier 3 and 4 casters being unbalanced. Once they realize how unbalanced they will not want to use the unbalanced spells.

I think this seems more of a case where ignorance is bliss.

 

[Jer]

Again, the solution is to show them the truth about tier 3 and 4 casters being unbalanced. Once they realize how unbalanced they will not want to use the unbalanced spells.

Um, this has not been my experience with high level play. Mostly the other players are hyped to see some cool magic stuff going on. Even if it shuts down a fight (especially, actually, if it's cool enough to shut down a fight).

When the unbalance is perceived it's generally more of a "why can't my character do something like that" than a "you should nerf them so they don't do that again" reaction. May just be the folks I play with.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Um, this has not been my experience with high level play. Mostly the other players are hyped to see some cool magic stuff going on. Even if it shuts down a fight (especially, actually, if it's cool enough to shut down a fight).

When the unbalance is perceived it's generally more of a "why can't my character do something like that" than a "you should nerf them so they don't do that again" reaction. May just be the folks I play with.

Sure. There is a social contract aspect at work here. Players are generally all on the same team and all.

That said, a conversation that starts with.. "Hey, you remember how your character could regularly shut down a fight with your spells and none of your fellow players could do something similar.. " is a conversation I think that most fair-minded players should entertain.