D&D 5E A Sorcerer Variant: Spells by any other name?

[Xeviat]

I want to be wowwed - how would you address other types of spells, ignoring damage?

I was saying that the variant would still have spells known. Likely the same as they do now, and the augments on their "channel Arcana" ability would take the place of the origin spells many of us clamor for.

The point of my variant is to give the sorcerer an identity and make them play like they are described. As they are now, to me, they don't feel particularly like "innate spellcasters". They do feel just like Charisma Wizards, minus the flexibility those Wizards have. Giving the sorcerer more unique mechanics (like spell points and overchanneling and special cantrips) could go a long way to making them feel unique.

To me, the sorcerer should be the go to blaster. As it stands now, the evoked is better at that. The evoker should be a good blaster, but they could be the diverse blaster, the one with flexibility, and more control (like avoiding allies). The sorcerer should be a barely controlled font of Arcane might, at least to me.




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[Xeviat]

So... the mystic?

A lot about the mystic mechanics could work for a sorcerer. Sometimes I want to take the mystic, sorcerer, and Warlock, and only allow two to exist. But, the mystic has its own flavor that comes through the mechanics that wouldn't quite work for the sorcerer, IMO.


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[Blue]

To me, the sorcerer should be the go to blaster. As it stands now, the evoked is better at that. The evoker should be a good blaster, but they could be the diverse blaster, the one with flexibility, and more control (like avoiding allies). The sorcerer should be a barely controlled font of Arcane might, at least to me.

Got it, we have a very different thematic view of a sorcerer. My vision of what a sorcerer should be thamatically is a natural of one type of magic - but type isn't the standard D&D types like evoking or summoning. A fire sorcerer sure could throw fire, or cloak themselves in it to melt projectiles and harm melee attackers. Or create wings of fire and fly on updrafts. Could make other's fire attacks miss. But for whatever - a metal sorcerer could easily encase themselves in it and make themselves like a tank, to have opponents weapons stab at them, or foe's metal armor lock in place - more control it with more resources used. Or use existing metal to make a bridge for allies to cross. Or make arrowheads blunt themselves. Plenty of other ideas besides elemental. Heck, the things you could do with control over cloth.

But different thematics are all valid, so let me get on board your idea and try to add. One statement you just wrote leaped out at me: The sorcerer should be a barely controlled font of Arcane might, at least to me.

So why not make them like that. Instead of giving them actual spell points, have them pick how big they want their spell and then roll for accomplishing it. Unfettered success and failure are both possible, but make it so there are more interesting possibilities. Success with cost is always possible as they don't control it well, but also not acting just right could be interesting as well - a cone of fire that's wider then expected and might get some allies - or just more foes - type of thing.

If you see them as barely control fonts of evocation, own it. Make them have that power - but also every spell (even low level ones) have a real chance of being something besides what they expect.

 

[Xeviat]

But different thematics are all valid, so let me get on board your idea and try to add. One statement you just wrote leaped out at me: The sorcerer should be a barely controlled font of Arcane might, at least to me.

So why not make them like that. Instead of giving them actual spell points, have them pick how big they want their spell and then roll for accomplishing it. Unfettered success and failure are both possible, but make it so there are more interesting possibilities. Success with cost is always possible as they don't control it well, but also not acting just right could be interesting as well - a cone of fire that's wider then expected and might get some allies - or just more foes - type of thing.

If you see them as barely control fonts of evocation, owe it. Make them have that power - but also every spell (even low level ones) have a real chance of being something besides what they expect.

I haven't had good experience with truly random effects like that. It would likely require a larger redesign than I think would be possible without making an entirely new class. The game already has Attack rolls and saving throws, so random rolls could be worked in, but they'd have to be in place of those instead.

I think.

Your ideas about thematic powers would fit the Mystic power structure. I might give that a try too.


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[mellored]

But different thematics are all valid, so let me get on board your idea and try to add. One statement you just wrote leaped out at me: The sorcerer should be a barely controlled font of Arcane might, at least to me.

So why not make them like that. Instead of giving them actual spell points, have them pick how big they want their spell and then roll for accomplishing it. Unfettered success and failure are both possible, but make it so there are more interesting possibilities. Success with cost is always possible as they don't control it well, but also not acting just right could be interesting as well - a cone of fire that's wider then expected and might get some allies - or just more foes - type of thing.

If you see them as barely control fonts of evocation, owe it. Make them have that power - but also every spell (even low level ones) have a real chance of being something besides what they expect.

How about spell-dice instead of spell points? Then you can roll for the spell variables such as size.


i.e.
Spell Dice: At the start of each of your turns, you get 4d4 spell dice, which you can use to cast the spells. The number (and size?) of the dice increase as you gain levels.

Cone of Fire: You make a cone of fire in a 60' arc. Roll as at least 1 spell die for the range, multiplying the result by 5', and at least 1 spell die for the damage. Creatures caught in the blast take damage equal to your roll.

So you can put your dice into distance, or damage. d4's give a tighter average, so as not to be too random.



Or if we just want to tack it onto the existing sorcerer. We could tie it into a new spell.

Wild Explosion: level 3 sorcerer spell
Select point in the range, which erupts with flame. It explodes in a 1d20+25' radius. Creatures in the zone make a dexterity saving throw and take 2d20 fire damage if they fail, half as much on a successful save. If you roll less than twice your casting modifier for the damage, you do not expend the spell slot.

 

[Blue]

I haven't had good experience with truly random effects like that. It would likely require a larger redesign than I think would be possible without making an entirely new class.

You're already at new-class place. You are pulling out the most iconic features (sorcery points and metamagic), putting in a new feature system, changing their casting from spell slots to spell points, and changing their focus to thematic damage and removing some other nifty niches like twinned buffs. With the exception of their spell list, it's already an entirely new class.

This isn't a bad thing. And if you are going to make that much of a change, embrace it and make it actually unique. Heck, make it unique enough to co-exist with the existing sorcerer who doesn't fit your image.

 

[Quickleaf]

Hi everyone. As I alluded to in the poll results thread, I want to talk about Fighters, Rangers, and Sorcerers. I've done a lot of talking about Fighters and Rangers before, so how about I spend some effort on Sorcerers.

I like Sorcerers. A lot. I like the concept of them better than the concept of a Wizard, personally. I'd rather play a Sorcerer. I didn't get to be a player much in 3E, but my first character was a Sorcerer. I largely liked how they were handled then. More spells, less choices, but spontaneous choices, just felt cool. I wasn't a spell optimizer back then, so I didn't see the Wizard as better (minus their bonus feats, stupid wizards and their bonus feats). I largely liked how Sorcerers were handled in 4E (minus my dislike for a lack of shared spell lists). But with everyone getting spontaneous casting in 5E, the sorcerer doesn't feel different enough to me.

I agree the sorcerer is one of the classes most in need of re-design. Its raison d'être has evaporated from 3E and it lacks the unique magic from 4E.

At first, I was fostering this idea as a DM's Guild thing. Maybe I'll put it up for free. I couldn't imagine charging for "my way" of doing PHB stuff. But, I really need some outside opinions to help shape my ideas. I want the sorcerer to feel like their magic is natural to them. I don't believe the current structure really does that. So, here are my ideas to change up the Sorcerer:

1) Remove Metamagic and reintroduce it most of them as feats.

I strongly second that. I *think* what the designers were aiming for by making Metamagic a sorcerer exclusive was a sort of compromise between the rigid spell system and build-spells-on-the-fly system found in other RPGs.

2) Add a new bloodline ability at 10th level.
3) Switch the Sorcerer to Spell Points.
4) Allow Sorcery Points to be used as Spell Points or to push spells to higher levels than they're normally capable of (which could be combined with metamagic feats to mimic what they used to do, or to just make big booms or affect extra targets).

I think you're getting ahead of yourself with those fine-tuning tweaks...and the ability to push spells to a higher level than normally capable of requires a lot of playtesting/design to balance it.

The BIG question, the one that needs to be addressed FIRST, is conceptual: What is a sorcerer, and how is that expressed in the class design?

And then there's the main idea. I'm not sure if this idea would require altering the number of spells known a sorcerer has, or simply abandoning the dream of giving them Origin Spells. My idea involves giving each Origin 2 custom cantrips. These cantrips scale like normal, though possibly with sorcerer level instead of character level, but they can be augmented with spell points. At first, this would just be for increasing damage or adding targets (depending on the cantrip), but as the Sorcerer gained levels they would learn different shapes and modifications to these cantrips (requiring a minimum spell level/SP value before you could choose the options). They'd be things like:

1st level, 2 sp) Self-centered radius burst, self-centered cone
2nd level, 3 sp) Damage over time, pillar
3rd level, 5 sp) Ranged radius burst, self-centered line ...

This seems to be about dealing damage in manner X, Y, or Z. That's totally one type of sorcerer, but I can think of sorcerers who aren't blasters.

It also seems like it could easily get mired down in details, slowing down actual play at the detail.

While I'm excited by this part of the idea, I'm concerned that it would just be spells by another name. It may feel different. It reminds me of the 3E Warlock with all their Eldritch Blast options (and it's really probably where the idea started to grow from). It could serve as a "simple spellcaster" too if designed right.

I believe the sorcerer should be re-designed as D&D's "simple spellcaster." Instead of giving sorcerers MORE spells known, I actually think that a sorcerer should be required to tightly specialize. The wizard is the swiss army knife – that's covered already. The sorcerer should do a few things really well, and be able to

A white dragon or cold sorcerer could have a cantrip for straight up damage and a cantrip for less damage and a slow effect. They could modify the sizes and ranges, choosing things like a cone of cold or more ranged focused choices, based on their vision for their character. A fey-oriented sorcerer could have sleep or charm effects that could be modified. Again, spells by another name, but the use of Spell Points and not strictly using the precise formulas of spells might make the sorcerer feel more unique.

I'm really hesitant about conceiving of sorcerer sub-classes as bloodlines due to the overlap that creates with the warlock.

"I've sworn a pact to an Archfey" vs "I am descended from an Archfey" feels like these two concepts are jockeying for the same design space. And then you get into the question of... "Wait, so you're descended from a Fiend....but you're not a tiefling?"

INSTEAD, I'd look at sorcerer sub-classes as far less specifically defined than, for example, a warlock's patron. Maybe you hail from a Secret Arcane Lineage? Or maybe your first memories are from a foul new moon rite when you emerged as one of the Cauldron-Born? Or maybe you are a Child of Prophesy?

I'd also consider lining up these sub-classes with major breakdowns of spellcasters in actual play – controllers, blasters, and...I know there are more, but I'm blanking now.

They'd still have spells known, of course. These would represent their efforts at learning more control of their arcane power. Maybe a "generic" sorcerer could spend their "Channel Sorcery" options on learning more spells, giving them more rigid defined options rather than adding to their primary ability.

I don't see any advantage to giving sorcerers the ability to have spells known. Bards, Wizards, and Warlocks can draw from many of the same spells. They're roughly equally complex. The sorcerer should be something different. It should be the entry point for those not-too-serious gamers who want to play Hermione or Harry Potter or Walker Boh or whatever innate-caster from fantasy literature they like.

I think spell points would lend well to making sorcerers feel like their power was more inborn. Points feel like a reserve of power, like endurance. Spell Slots feel like compartmentalized features. The sorcerer can already expend spell slots to regenerate sorcery points: Just take out the middleman.

What do you think?

I actually think a sorcerer shouldn't need to deal with any "spell accounting", whether they're called spell points or spell slots. For example, maybe they have a Magic Fatigue Check instead? I'd want a sorcerer to basically do their thing ALL the time...cantrips in 5e terms. And then their ability to boost their cantrips (or whatever mechanic you go with) would be governed by a Magic Fatigue Check or something along those lines. There'd be no points/slots to track whatsoever...the most there'd be to track would be the use of a feature that recharges after a long and/or short rest (kinda like the Champion fighter).

 

[MoonSong]

I believe the sorcerer should be re-designed as D&D's "simple spellcaster." Instead of giving sorcerers MORE spells known, I actually think that a sorcerer should be required to tightly specialize. The wizard is the swiss army knife – that's covered already. The sorcerer should do a few things really well, and be able to

The problem is, there is no advantage to being an specialist, no matter how tightly you specialize, you cannot do anything better than a generalist swiss army knife. I think that so few spells known would work better if they all looked more like Enhance Ability and less like Knock. Maybe create a ton of sorcerer only spells that were "better" than what a generalist gets, ie, a version of knock that wasn't noisy and could be used on any locks, a version of find familiar that gives you an actual animal as familiar -a sturdy animal-, and then make all of them simply not work if the caster is not a sorcerer. -Or even make a nonsorcerer caster vanish from existence-

 

[Ganymede81]

What about trying to redo the sorcerer as a warlock patron? Dragons are already conceivable as a patron option. You'd likely have to drop metamagic and sorcery points, but all of the dragon bloodline features could likely be ported over.

 

[Xeviat]

What about trying to redo the sorcerer as a warlock patron? Dragons are already conceivable as a patron option. You'd likely have to drop metamagic and sorcery points, but all of the dragon bloodline features could likely be ported over.

Ignoring mechanics, there could be some thematic overlap between the Sorcerer and Warlock. The Sorcerer has magic in their blood. The Warlock is granted their power. To some, these could be the same thing. To others, they could be strongly different. It might be similarly close as Cleric vs Druid.

A lot of Warlock mechanics could suit the Sorcerer too: short rest spell recovery, plenty of at-will powers, powerful cantrips, and a connection with powerful supernatural entities. The distinction between "my pact gives me power" and "my ancestry gives me power" could be seen as different sides of the same code. I'm not there now, but I could probably be convinced to mix the two. I do dislike that there are three "full casters" that use Charisma.


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