A tiny offset to the Frenzy Barbarian's neg?

[CapnZapp]

The much maligned frenzy does not require an adjustment, to be honest. I played one for an entire campaign and it was fine.

Think of frenzy as a once, perhaps twice, per LR ability.

The only problem with this approach is.... It makes Berserk un-fun.

Having this über ability that you always need to hold back on because you only get the one shot... means in practice you seldom use it, because the day ends before you reach that Obvious End-Game Boss-Fight.

It doesn't help that... The ability isn't all that über. It's good, sure, but not nearly powerful enough to justify such a draconian restriction.

TLDR; Would rather play a Totem or Zealot.

Which pretty much negates the value of arguing Berserker is fine. You CAN argue it, but the net effect remains the same: players simply avoid it.

In order to actually make the subclass see use, more is needed. Basically, you need to accept the PHB contains mistakes and weaknesses.

The much maligned frenzy does require an adjustment, to be honest.

 

[CubicsRube]

You could allow the barbarian to make a dc15 con save at the end of the rage to resist exhaustion.

At 1st level they'd have a roughly 50% chance of making the save, and at 20 with +13 to their con save, they'd only fail on a 1.

This makes frenzy always a question of risk, whether to push it or not. It also gives a feeling of progression, as the class gets better at avoiding the repercussions of using frenzy.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Mearls made mention in the last Happy Fun Hour video that he now finds the exhaustion penalty for Frenzy to be unnecessary and not something they'd probably do again. The way he talks about it, it seems like he thinks you could remove the penalty and not cause any issues with the subclass.

 

[Motorskills]

Mearls made mention in the last Happy Fun Hour video that he now finds the exhaustion penalty for Frenzy to be unnecessary and not something they'd probably do again. The way he talks about it, it seems like he thinks you could remove the penalty and not cause any issues with the subclass.

I think that's probably correct, especially at higher levels there is often something else you want to do with your Bonus Action.

 

[Vymair]

I have a player likely going this route with the barbarian he just rolled up in my game. I am making it an extra attack instead of an attack on the bonus action. This allows for the Barbarian to get the extra attack in the same round they rage and still leverages the Great Weapon Master feat. As for the exhaustion, I'm leaving it in place for now, but keeping on eye on it.

 

[GlassJaw]

I have a player likely going this route with the barbarian he just rolled up in my game. I am making it an extra attack instead of an attack on the bonus action. This allows for the Barbarian to get the extra attack in the same round they rage and still leverages the Great Weapon Master feat. As for the exhaustion, I'm leaving it in place for now, but keeping on eye on it.

Are you granting another Attack ACTION or simply dropping the bonus action requirement? If it's the former, it's is overkill and steps all over the Fighter's Action Surge ability. If it's the latter, it doesn't seem like it would benefit the Barbarian all that much, and actually push them towards two-weapon fighting.

 

[Vymair]

Not an extra attack action, but an extra attack, so at 3-4 (extra attack when frenzied), 5-20 (extra attack when not frenzied , extra attack 2 when frenzied). So at 5th level when frenzied, the barbarian gets 3 attacks on an attack action.

 

[Bardbarian]

I have played a Frenzy Barb for 16 levels and I think people are way too fixated on the exhaustion. It's a balance to a minor benefit. I don't frenzy every fight and it makes the times I do feel more important. Honestly I can frenzy 3 time before it really becomes an issue. usually this only happens during some major campaign event and is often followed by some downtime. I did consider an option for house rule replacing the level 10 ability with the ability to make a con save dc 15 to resist exhaustion increasing by +5dc each time. I play in AL however so have not been able to playtest this rule myself. Either way the character is fun to play and the exhaustion really is not that big a deal because it is offset by the core bonuses of the Barbarian class itself. In addition the level 6 and level 14 abilities are the best of all the subclasses in my opinion and turn the level 3ability into more of a bonus rider than the core of the class.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I have played a Frenzy Barb for 16 levels and I think people are way too fixated on the exhaustion. It's a balance to a minor benefit. I don't frenzy every fight and it makes the times I do feel more important. Honestly I can frenzy 3 time before it really becomes an issue. usually this only happens during some major campaign event and is often followed by some downtime. I did consider an option for house rule replacing the level 10 ability with the ability to make a con save dc 15 to resist exhaustion increasing by +5dc each time. I play in AL however so have not been able to playtest this rule myself. Either way the character is fun to play and the exhaustion really is not that big a deal because it is offset by the core bonuses of the Barbarian class itself. In addition the level 6 and level 14 abilities are the best of all the subclasses in my opinion and turn the level 3ability into more of a bonus rider than the core of the class.

It isn't that big of a deal *to you*. It's a straight up deal-breaker for *me*. Berserker is the type of barbarian I'm most interested in, but I wouldn't play one out of the book. And after all the discussions about the problems with it, both concerning balance with other subclasses, and functional thematic disconnect, WotC prints the Zealot, which essentially tells us the subclass is balanced without the exhaustion (or Zealot is way overpowered). These subclasses are no where near on par.

If your game had both a Berserker and a Zealot, maybe your group would feel different.

Any issue that comes up again, and again, and again, from different people, is by definition a real issue. I've decided to quit downplaying such issues for others just because they don't impact my game.

Not trying to attack your post specifically, I've just decided I'm going to stop delegitimizing other people's issues.

 

[BookBarbarian]

One proposed change I saw was to switch Retaliation with Frenzy. So at level 3 you get a very reliable Reaction Attack, and "You hit me I hit you back" seemed appropriate to the Berserker. I thought it was interesting.

Still I think Mearls is right that Exhaustion is just not needed.

Cutting Exhaustion from the mechanic doesn't make a Berserker more powerful that a Zealot, Bear Totem Barb, or Wolf Totem Barb IMHO.