A Tournament of Cosmic Propotions! (Immortal's Handbook Rules)

[Neoiceshroom]

You're banning Automatic Metamagic Capacity but not Improved Metamagic? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Splitting AMC and ISC back into two different feats and banning Improved Metamagic leaves casters in a strong but not incredibly unbalanced position, assuming you do the smart thing and cap the damage of certain uncapped spells (Force Missiles, Avasculate, Maw of Chaos) and restrict Twin Spell and Repeat Spell in the same way that you restrict Quicken Spell (This change makes the ISC AMC combination scale linearly rather than quadratically with level). Perhaps a general proclamation that all spells that deal damage that scales with caster level cap at 25th level unless they explicitly have a cap at a higher level, and benefitting from more caster levels requires the application of metamagic. I usually make Enhance Spell just say "you can benefit from 8 additional caster levels in the case of capped spell effects".

I'm already decided upon what I'm gonna do with Improved Meta-Magic. It will only affect certain meta-magic abilities excluding Quicken, Twin, Repeat and a few others. All of the abilities it actually effects will be included in the actual ability description once it's finished. As far as AMMC goes I like the fact that you have a separate feat for being able to apply MM feats to spell like abilities. It seems like a good idea to me. For epic spellcasting from Feanmerc I'm considering bringing back Both the "Epic Spellcasting" epic feat and "Improved Spell capacity" epic feats, using FeanMerc rules of course, But limiting Improved Spell capacity in some way, or perhaps even empowering it depending on what the numbers say.

[MENTION=80514]Bel[/MENTION]z & Buugi - Either of you two have data crunched on ISC and how well the damage scales?

Of course, to really fix the spell system you'll need to fix save-or-lose spells, but that's a much bigger problem with the game than just spells.

Get rid of them? Maybe. I think limiting how much actual damage they can do in some way might suffice.

Since spellcasters basically stop advancing once they hit 20th level without feats, stacking feats are pretty much required. Things like school specialisation, portfolios and prestige classes will mean casters aren't short on options to make them unique. Maybe there could be a DvA that did the job of either AMC or ISC and scaled with caster level, but there's no way that's going to be balanced.

Well, to be honest there is no point in taking levels in any spellcasting class beyond level 20 aside from bonus epic feats which can be stacked into infinity. However stacking extra Improved Spell Capacity feats does nothing if you don't have enough meta-magic or a high enough spellcraft check to take full advantage of it. Fine, stackable feats are acceptable, but stacking them beyond a certain point NEEDS to become redundant, or else the divine ability multifaceted will become INSANELY overpowered and overused.

I made a separate feat (Innate Metamagic Freedom) to do that. It lacked the prerequisites of Metamagic Freedom because none of them made sense with SLAs. Requiring ranks in Spellcraft and four metamagic feats means that SLA-users who want to take it have to take four useless feats and put ranks in a useless (possibly cross-flavour) skill to get it. And many of the 9th level portfolio spells are really good, so giving spellcasters the ability to metamagic them up for free hardly helps balance.

I may well adopt this rule, at least for purposes of this tournament. Any objections friend?

I'm of the opinion that Cosmics should apply to specific class-features only sparingly, and Transcendental abilities and above should never be class-specific, so metamagic at that level isn't a great idea. Divine Metamagic abilities were something I had considered, but there aren't many that aren't just epic metamagic feats, but better. The ideas I had were: Hyperdimensional Spell (has Transdimensional Spell as a prerequisite, +12 slot adjustment), which affects all coexistent planes simultaneously, like Transdimensional Spell, but also ignores almost everything when calculating line of effect (3D objects don't block LoS for 4D effects), bypasses the miss chance from Interdimensional, and ignores anything an incorporeal touch attack would ignore. Some metamagic effect that gave infinite range (needs Enlarge, +12 slot adjustment) (and another for AoE needing Widen, at +18 slot adjustment). Permanent Spell (needs Extend and Persistent, changes spell duration to Permanent, probably +36 slot adjustment). Interdimensional Spell (prerequisites were Hyperdimensional, Transdimensional, Enlarge and whatever the Divine version of Enlarge is called, +42 slot adjustment), lets you target other planes, although it doesn't let you view other planes inherently, so you're firing blind without some method of remote viewing. Omnidimensional Spell (needing Interdimensional, the Divine version of Widen and all their prerequisites, +64 slot adjustment), lets a spell affect every plane simultaneously. Perceptual Spell (+6 slot adjustment, probably an epic feat) Allows mind-affecting abilities to ignore any immunity to mind-affecting effects other than having an Int of -. Most of those are just beefed-up versions of sub-epic metamagic though. Making Contingency into a metamagic feat might also be a thing.

You have some great ideas man. I love your ideas. You're very intelligent. Thank you so much for being a part of this tournament. -Hugs.-

^.^

 

[Buugipopuu]

Is Nanami approved? If you're reintroducing Epic Spellcasting she'll need one feat retraining (as will Anaesthesia), but that's hardly an issue.

I'm already decided upon what I'm gonna do with Improved Meta-Magic. It will only affect certain meta-magic abilities excluding Quicken, Twin, Repeat and a few others. All of the abilities it actually effects will be included in the actual ability description once it's finished. As far as AMMC goes I like the fact that you have a separate feat for being able to apply MM feats to spell like abilities. It seems like a good idea to me. For epic spellcasting from Feanmerc I'm considering bringing back Both the "Epic Spellcasting" epic feat and "Improved Spell capacity" epic feats, using FeanMerc rules of course, But limiting Improved Spell capacity in some way, or perhaps even empowering it depending on what the numbers say.

Even letting it apply to Empower Spell is still beyond the power level of a feat. Taking it once with Empower doubles a spellcaster's damage output at high levels. Even with non-stacking metamagic feats, it provides a bigger benefit than either ISC or AMC as long as you're applying two different metamagic feats to a spell at once. As long as it exists you always take it until your metamagic all costs 1 per application, and then start on AMC and ISC because they're strictly worse. Basically, any form of cost-reduction will always be too good as long as spell levels are as granular as they are.

ISC damage is basically fine as long as you don't let uncapped spells or stacking of Twin/Quicken/Repeat.

Get rid of them? Maybe. I think limiting how much actual damage they can do in some way might suffice.

How's that supposed help with, say Dominate Monster or Flesh to Stone? Sure, immunities are easy to come by and the save DCs tend to suck, but they can be spammed to make DCs irrelevant (although rerolls make that a non-issue) and immunity penetration isn't hard to get, so they're usually either useless or unstoppable.

Well, to be honest there is no point in taking levels in any spellcasting class beyond level 20 aside from bonus epic feats which can be stacked into infinity.

Surely that's true of most base classes? Single-classed builds can't really get the flexibility they need to survive anyway, with the exception of Wild Shape, but that's mainly due to the lack of PrCs that advance it and the fact that dropping Wild Shape levels is even worse than dropping caster levels.

However stacking extra Improved Spell Capacity feats does nothing if you don't have enough meta-magic or a high enough spellcraft check to take full advantage of it.

You can get quite far with just the minimum 4 Metamagic feats and Metamagic Freedom. And Anyfeat for all the situational metamagic feats.

Fine, stackable feats are acceptable, but stacking them beyond a certain point NEEDS to become redundant, or else the divine ability multifaceted will become INSANELY overpowered and overused.

This is more due to the lack of things for spellcasters to actually do with their feat slots but get ISC and AMC, not because ISC and AMC are overpowered. The options for spellcasters for DvAs all suck. Counterspelling is something that's neglected, but I think all the options for it are merely Epic.

 

[Neoiceshroom]

Just for the record, I haven't had a chance to look over your fey creature thoroughly Buugi. I shall take a look after I get off work tomorrow morning.

 

[Belzamus]

From what I can see, Neo, there isn't anything glaringly wrong with her. With iaijutsu, her damage is going to be high, but not beyond what the tournament is already boasting. Epic spellcasting is always a trump card, though.

With that insane initiative, though, she might pull off some 1-round kills against less-defensively-oriented opponents.

Perfection will give her some trouble, I think, but at least she can dodge his plasma pretty reliably and kite out of his range. I don't see him winning that match-up. She's not a god, so Austere and Alabaster are pretty screwed against her. The final phoenix doesn't look like it would have much of a chance with her evasion. I'm not all that well acquainted with Buugi's other entrants, but Polymorpheus looks like he's pretty much out her league. Anasthesia looks about in her league. And as usual, if Vasthultus lives past the opening round, he's a pretty serious threat, especially with her low hp. Overall, I'd say she fits fine barring something I missed.

Also, any chance of an updated roster with links to the entrants? Would make comparing a lot easier.

 

[Buugipopuu]

I was considering making one of her artefacts a literal glass cannon, but thought that would be too silly.

 

[Neoiceshroom]

I've been considering the Body divine abilities as they are published in the IH Handbook, and something kinda struck me as odd. Take Heavenly Body for example, you gain your divine bonus as a luck bonus to AC. Sure, simple enough. Yet when we look at Heavenly Mind all of a sudden it's based on Charisma Bonus is instead of divine bonus. See What happened there?

That to me is I think why the abilities are unbalanced, at least in this case. I sugguest we make all of the abilities, either based on ability score mods, or divine bonus. Not half of them one way, and half of them another way. In fact... now that I've read over a lot of the abilities published in the IH need a little work. Great. Now I get to we-rite ALL of them.

*wanders off grumbling curses*

This may take a day or two!

 

[Buugipopuu]

I've been considering the Body divine abilities as they are published in the IH Handbook, and something kinda struck me as odd. Take Heavenly Body for example, you gain your divine bonus as a luck bonus to AC. Sure, simple enough. Yet when we look at Heavenly Mind all of a sudden it's based on Charisma Bonus is instead of divine bonus. See What happened there?

The justification from U_K is that usually an attack bonus that's too high is easier to manage than an AC that's too high, and the same with saves. This is of course bollocks. A more sensible thing to say is that getting Int, Wis or Cha to AC is already fairly easy, so if a DvA granted any of those, you'd be getting double Cha to AC, which makes it very easy to become impossible to hit. The X ability score to attack/saves abilities are some of the most problematic abilities in the Divine tier, and they end up being so good that they're essential, so I've previously houseruled that the Mind abilities have the Body abilities as their prerequisites, and the Soul abilities have the Spirit abilities as their prerequisites, since Spirit and Body both suck, and Mind and Soul could very well cost 2 DvAs and still be worth it.

In fact... now that I've read over a lot of the abilities published in the IH need a little work. Great. Now I get to we-rite ALL of them.

http://yurgen.uwcs.co.uk/DND/IHDVA.rtf I've rewritten most of the DvAs. However my characters for this tournament aren't built with them, and would be illegal with those rules, so I wouldn't recommend many of the changes given the number of characters already submitted. Also they were written without HP/DR multipliers in mind, and with the assumption that Esoteric abilities weren't a thing. Many of them are just clarifications, since U_K didn't specify nearly as much as he should when writing up the IH.

 

[Neoiceshroom]

Well, in lighter news, I don't actually have to re-write ALL of them. I've so far come across a dozen or more published abilities that are just fine as published. They will be absent from the list I'm gonna write up. Probably gonna be MSWord doc or something similar because I'm too lazy to whip up anything fancy.

 

[Buugipopuu]

Is Monstrous Humanoid still taken?

 

[Neoiceshroom]

Is Monstrous Humanoid still taken?

Is monstrous humanoid actually a type in 3.5 or is it a subtype? If it is taken I couldn't tell you which combatant has that type/subtype right off the top of my head. I don't think it would hurt to have two if you have another combatant to suggest.

Okay I think I'm done re-writing all of the divine abilities. To my surprise most of them were okay as published, with a few exceptions. The exceptions are in the attached RTF document.

Force field uses Belzamus' rules.

Lord of Blood and Lord of Bone have been banned.

Moonstruck has also been banned.

Although the Perfect Mind and Perfect Body abilities have NOT been banned, they are more or less pointless abilities.

Polymorph is okay... but seems underpowered in my opinion... suggestions anyone?

Regeneration seems like it should be stackable, but have a limit on how many times it should be stacked.