VSCs don't adjust dex or con. That's for actual size categories only.
A Tournament of Cosmic Propotions! (Immortal's Handbook Rules)
- Thread starter Neoiceshroom
- Start date
VSCs don't adjust dex or con. That's for actual size categories only.
Buugipopuu
First Post
If someone with more wealth than his level and a PrC that hands out Cosmic Abilities* like they're bonus feats is one of the weakest entrants into a competition, perhaps the problem is the crazy cosmic arms race you've got here. That Neoiceshroom suggested adding Legendary Strength to your character is notable, because it means Legendary [Ability Score] isn't really an esoteric ability at all. It's required to even be competitive. I'd submit some of my gods to this, but there'd be no point because none of them have Cosmic Abilities or custom Epic Spells, so they'd get slaughtered. Although I could rebuild Polymorpheus with Esoterics. That'd be pretty hilarious.
*Really all those cosmic PrCs need more dead levels if their ECL calculations are to be even vaguely accurate.
That would reduce it to 135. Still not enough.
Being a divine bonus in all but name is better than a being a divine bonus. It stacks with divine bonuses, doesn't trigger Supremacy or Absolute, and doesn't trigger Godslayer abilities, doesn't trigger Godsend's special ability and isn't nullified by a Quintessence Elemental's* ability. Note that a +1 Luck bonus to all rolls is a Cosmic ability (a terrible one, but a Cosmic ability nonetheless)
*Aka: Any Divine Druid's primary combat form when it's not being an Unelemental.
That's not the point. The point is that if you'd got a +profane to three ability scores item, you'd have a +24 bonus because of the premiums you pay for multiple abilities on one item, slotless items, and getting a profane bonus instead of an enhancement bonus. By trading in your artefact you're gaining +12 to three ability scores and increased resilience to antimagic, sundering and theft for free. That's not a fair exchange. Even if you claim not to like formulae, even you have to admit that power that can't be taken from you is worth more than that which can be nullified in several different ways. What's the point of all those Sunder-based abilities in the IH if it wasn't intended for sundering to be viable?
Nope. Alabaster's massively over-equipped. Alabaster's only sort-of acceptable because his build is hilariously poorly optimised. Six weapons is a really dumb way of allocating your wealth, even if you've got far more of it than you should, and his feat selection is one of someone who got bored and just started piling on the stacking feats.
*Really all those cosmic PrCs need more dead levels if their ECL calculations are to be even vaguely accurate.
Belzamus said:
That would reduce it to 135. Still not enough.
Being a divine bonus in all but name is better than a being a divine bonus. It stacks with divine bonuses, doesn't trigger Supremacy or Absolute, and doesn't trigger Godslayer abilities, doesn't trigger Godsend's special ability and isn't nullified by a Quintessence Elemental's* ability. Note that a +1 Luck bonus to all rolls is a Cosmic ability (a terrible one, but a Cosmic ability nonetheless)
*Aka: Any Divine Druid's primary combat form when it's not being an Unelemental.
That's not the point. The point is that if you'd got a +profane to three ability scores item, you'd have a +24 bonus because of the premiums you pay for multiple abilities on one item, slotless items, and getting a profane bonus instead of an enhancement bonus. By trading in your artefact you're gaining +12 to three ability scores and increased resilience to antimagic, sundering and theft for free. That's not a fair exchange. Even if you claim not to like formulae, even you have to admit that power that can't be taken from you is worth more than that which can be nullified in several different ways. What's the point of all those Sunder-based abilities in the IH if it wasn't intended for sundering to be viable?
Nope. Alabaster's massively over-equipped. Alabaster's only sort-of acceptable because his build is hilariously poorly optimised. Six weapons is a really dumb way of allocating your wealth, even if you've got far more of it than you should, and his feat selection is one of someone who got bored and just started piling on the stacking feats.
You know... you're completely right.
In the interest of me not having to do more work, though, I'm going to offer one final argument.
Given the huge ECL range the tournament is open to, even if we applied a level adjustment for the places where he exceeds his allowed abilities, he would still fall in under 239, are we agreed on that?
Personally, I never liked going past 100, maybe 150ish for practical play. This territory we're in here is a nightmare to balance, if it's even possible at all. I might even offer that it's *less* balanced in this bracket than it is at the 300+ range, but... I really don't feel like getting into that.
Edit: Also, just checked, Fortuity is a Divine Ability, not a Cosmic. I didn't think even U_K could be naive enough to give a +1 luck bonus as a Cosmic. Even as a divine, though, it's pretty awful.
And, I'll have to fiddle with his stats to get him 135 strength, then. Will drop the armor to +5. Not going to give him Legendary Strength until I see some more of the competitors, it feels like a cop out at this point.
In the interest of me not having to do more work, though, I'm going to offer one final argument.
Given the huge ECL range the tournament is open to, even if we applied a level adjustment for the places where he exceeds his allowed abilities, he would still fall in under 239, are we agreed on that?
Personally, I never liked going past 100, maybe 150ish for practical play. This territory we're in here is a nightmare to balance, if it's even possible at all. I might even offer that it's *less* balanced in this bracket than it is at the 300+ range, but... I really don't feel like getting into that.
Edit: Also, just checked, Fortuity is a Divine Ability, not a Cosmic. I didn't think even U_K could be naive enough to give a +1 luck bonus as a Cosmic.
Even as a divine, though, it's pretty awful.And, I'll have to fiddle with his stats to get him 135 strength, then. Will drop the armor to +5. Not going to give him Legendary Strength until I see some more of the competitors, it feels like a cop out at this point.
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Buugipopuu
First Post
You know... you're completely right.
In the interest of me not having to do more work, though, I'm going to offer one final argument.
Given the huge ECL range the tournament is open to, even if we applied a level adjustment for the places where he exceeds his allowed abilities, he would still fall in under 239, are we agreed on that?
Personally, I never liked going past 100, maybe 150ish for practical play. This territory we're in here is a nightmare to balance, if it's even possible at all. I might even offer that it's *less* balanced in this bracket than it is at the 300+ range, but... I really don't feel like getting into that.
I agree, the highest level game I've ever played was 160, and that's with considerable nerfage of most things. He's clearly not too powerful for the rules of the tournament (I may have been looking at it as a GM who's said 'Make an ECL 208 character'), but he's no way ECL 208.
EDIT: Except the Double Standards thing. I've had so many players try to sneak extra attack tricks past me that don't actually work that I always get annoyed when I see people just assuming two abilities will work together. Double Standards is a poorly-written ability anyway. Slashing Flurry from PHBII is the same in effect, but worded properly (and with slashing weapons only, and restricted to fighters due to prereqs). If you really want a mobile warrior, take some Martial Study and get Quicksilver Motion and Bounding Assault.
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I think, when I have a minute, I'm just going to remove all his spring attack feats and dual strike and double standards. He doesn't actually need them and you're right, as written they don't work that way.
Now, whether Neo would allow a Perfect Spring Attack divine ability, I have no idea. I use one in my own games, but as I said, my guy can already move and attack almost all the time thanks to Reaping the Slaughterous Harvest anyway.
My main reservation is having to type out and format a separate Attack and Full Attack section.
Now, whether Neo would allow a Perfect Spring Attack divine ability, I have no idea. I use one in my own games, but as I said, my guy can already move and attack almost all the time thanks to Reaping the Slaughterous Harvest anyway.
My main reservation is having to type out and format a separate Attack and Full Attack section.
Buugipopuu
First Post
Hmm...
Perfect Spring Attack (Divine Ability, Ex)
Your tops are made out of rubber, and your legs are made out of springs.
Prerequisites: Dex 25, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Run, Epic Speed, Improved Initiative, Dire Charge
Benefit: When making the full attack action, you may move up to half your speed before, after, and between any attacks you make. The total distance you move during this action may not exceed twice your speed, and you must move at least five feet each time you have the opportunity to move. You gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity while spring attacking (stacking with the benefit from Mobility).
EDIT: Now maybe I'll see some mobile fighters in my games that don't have levels in Dervish or Eternal Blade.
Make a spreadsheet, possibly in google docs. Then it automatically updates everything whenever you change anything through the power of formulae and conditional formatting.
It's also handy because you can write in flags that allow you to trigger special abilities without having to recalculate. This is most notable with Incarnates. Perfect Meldshaping is a huge pain to recalculate.
Perfect Spring Attack (Divine Ability, Ex)
Your tops are made out of rubber, and your legs are made out of springs.
Prerequisites: Dex 25, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Run, Epic Speed, Improved Initiative, Dire Charge
Benefit: When making the full attack action, you may move up to half your speed before, after, and between any attacks you make. The total distance you move during this action may not exceed twice your speed, and you must move at least five feet each time you have the opportunity to move. You gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity while spring attacking (stacking with the benefit from Mobility).
EDIT: Now maybe I'll see some mobile fighters in my games that don't have levels in Dervish or Eternal Blade.
My main reservation is having to type out and format a separate Attack and Full Attack section.
Make a spreadsheet, possibly in google docs. Then it automatically updates everything whenever you change anything through the power of formulae and conditional formatting.
It's also handy because you can write in flags that allow you to trigger special abilities without having to recalculate. This is most notable with Incarnates. Perfect Meldshaping is a huge pain to recalculate.
Okay, from what I've seen thus far Buug has shown me, the original purpose of this tournament is most certainly a lost cause. Originally the idea was to try and balance Epic play. It seems that all the rules I've made serve only to un-balance certain aspects of the game, whilst heavily overbalancing other aspects of the game. Yes it's certainly possible for something to be too balanced and some aspects of my rule system are just that.
From this point onward I shall declare that the purpose of this tournament is no longer an attempt to balance any rules, or sets of rules, rather it shall simply be well...frankly... for fun. But since I'm the one doing most of the work here, it will be in accordance with my rules.
Oh and as for Dex/Con being affected by virtual size categories, that's just plain dumb. *Whacks with banhammer*
From this point onward I shall declare that the purpose of this tournament is no longer an attempt to balance any rules, or sets of rules, rather it shall simply be well...frankly... for fun. But since I'm the one doing most of the work here, it will be in accordance with my rules.
Oh and as for Dex/Con being affected by virtual size categories, that's just plain dumb. *Whacks with banhammer*
*cries* But I already changed his Dex/Con...
Anyway, what rules are we going with then?
Also, Kapi had me work on Perfection, here he is. I just flat-out guessed on that Inscription, as I couldn't think of any items that would be appropriate for him. I eyeballed it at 2 cosmics and a divine, which should be well within what he's allowed.
[sblock] Perfection
Paragon Awakened Orichalcum Golem Threat 30
Large Construct (Living)
Hit Dice: 155d100 +81,920 +1,860 (99,280 hp)
Initiative: +4 (+4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 90 ft.
Armor Class: 403 (+134 Deflection, +12 Insight ,+12 luck, +135 Natural)
Flat-Footed: 403 Touch: 268
Base Attack/Grapple: +113/+299
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Attack: 2 Slams +423 melee 415d10 +157 20/x2
Saving Throws: Fort +85 Ref +85 Will +89
Special Abilities: Merciless, Mighty Blow, Plasma Beam (155d100), Supernova (DC 100), Titan
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Darkvision 600 ft., DR 100/--, Fast Healing 100, Immunity to Magic, Improved Uncanny Dodge (217th level), Immunity to Non-Lethal Damage, Low-Light Vision
Abilities: Str 285 Dex 10 Con – Int 45 Wis 31 Cha 20
Skills: Balance +168, Climb +305, Intimidate +173, Jump +305, Listen +178, Search +185, Spot +178, Swim +305
Feats: (54) Combat Brute, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Sunder, Leap Attack, Power Attack, Shock Trooper
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Prowess (35), Greater Power Attack, Greater Sunder, Perfect Cleave, Power Attack mastery, Superior Cleave, Superior Sunder, Uncanny Power Attack
Alignment: Neutral
CR: 142
ECL: 213
Possessions: Armageddon Inscription
Armageddon Inscription
This twisting, full-body runic inlay is inked with the blood of a hundred gods. It provides Perfection with the following effects:
It grants him a Competence bonus on Attack Rolls equal to his Base Attack Bonus.
It convert half of his Natural Armor bonus (369) into a Deflection bonus.
As a Swift Action, Perfection may reroute the power supply from his Inscription into his Plasma Beam, negating the Inscription's effects. While the Inscription is powered down, the excess energy is diverted to charging Perfections Plasma Beam, turning it from a Beam into a 17.5 mile Line and doubling its damage to 310d100. A Reflex Save (DC 100) halves the damage. Perfection may resupply the Inscription with energy as a Swift Action, resuming its normal function.
Combat Notes
Perfection may declare any attack he makes a Mighty Blow, dealing an extra 137 untyped damage. He may make 60 Mighty Blow attacks per day. By expending 2 Mighty Blow attempts, he may cause an attack to deal double damage, including the +137 untyped damage from Mighty Blow.
Perfection Power Attacks at a 2:1 ratio and automatically Power Attacks for the amount by which his Attack Roll exceeds his opponent's Armor Class. On a charge, he Power Attacks at a 4:1 ratio, and may elect to subtract from his Armor Class rather than his Attack Bonus to fuel his Power Attack. Whenever he successfully damages an opponent with his Power Attack, in the subsequent round, he gains a bonus on Damage Rolls equal to twice the Power Attack bonus he received in the previous round.
Perfection receives a Full Attack (two Slam attacks) at the end of any Charge.
Perfection does not suffer Attacks of Opportunity for Sunder attempts, and deals triple damage when Sundering.
Whenever Perfection drops an opponent or scores a Critical hit, he receives an additional Slam attack and may move 5 ft.
As a Free Action every 1d2 rounds, Perfection may emit a beam of plasma 17.5 miles in length, dealing 155d100 Divine Fire damage. This is a Ranged Touch attack with an Attack Bonus of +251.
Perfection ignores all Hardness and Damage Reduction.
If Perfection is destroyed, he detonates in a spectacular atomic explosion. See the Epic Bestiary Volume 1, page 93 for details. [/sblock]
Anyway, what rules are we going with then?
Also, Kapi had me work on Perfection, here he is. I just flat-out guessed on that Inscription, as I couldn't think of any items that would be appropriate for him. I eyeballed it at 2 cosmics and a divine, which should be well within what he's allowed.
[sblock] Perfection
Paragon Awakened Orichalcum Golem Threat 30
Large Construct (Living)
Hit Dice: 155d100 +81,920 +1,860 (99,280 hp)
Initiative: +4 (+4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 90 ft.
Armor Class: 403 (+134 Deflection, +12 Insight ,+12 luck, +135 Natural)
Flat-Footed: 403 Touch: 268
Base Attack/Grapple: +113/+299
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Attack: 2 Slams +423 melee 415d10 +157 20/x2
Saving Throws: Fort +85 Ref +85 Will +89
Special Abilities: Merciless, Mighty Blow, Plasma Beam (155d100), Supernova (DC 100), Titan
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Darkvision 600 ft., DR 100/--, Fast Healing 100, Immunity to Magic, Improved Uncanny Dodge (217th level), Immunity to Non-Lethal Damage, Low-Light Vision
Abilities: Str 285 Dex 10 Con – Int 45 Wis 31 Cha 20
Skills: Balance +168, Climb +305, Intimidate +173, Jump +305, Listen +178, Search +185, Spot +178, Swim +305
Feats: (54) Combat Brute, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Sunder, Leap Attack, Power Attack, Shock Trooper
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Prowess (35), Greater Power Attack, Greater Sunder, Perfect Cleave, Power Attack mastery, Superior Cleave, Superior Sunder, Uncanny Power Attack
Alignment: Neutral
CR: 142
ECL: 213
Possessions: Armageddon Inscription
Armageddon Inscription
This twisting, full-body runic inlay is inked with the blood of a hundred gods. It provides Perfection with the following effects:
It grants him a Competence bonus on Attack Rolls equal to his Base Attack Bonus.
It convert half of his Natural Armor bonus (369) into a Deflection bonus.
As a Swift Action, Perfection may reroute the power supply from his Inscription into his Plasma Beam, negating the Inscription's effects. While the Inscription is powered down, the excess energy is diverted to charging Perfections Plasma Beam, turning it from a Beam into a 17.5 mile Line and doubling its damage to 310d100. A Reflex Save (DC 100) halves the damage. Perfection may resupply the Inscription with energy as a Swift Action, resuming its normal function.
Combat Notes
Perfection may declare any attack he makes a Mighty Blow, dealing an extra 137 untyped damage. He may make 60 Mighty Blow attacks per day. By expending 2 Mighty Blow attempts, he may cause an attack to deal double damage, including the +137 untyped damage from Mighty Blow.
Perfection Power Attacks at a 2:1 ratio and automatically Power Attacks for the amount by which his Attack Roll exceeds his opponent's Armor Class. On a charge, he Power Attacks at a 4:1 ratio, and may elect to subtract from his Armor Class rather than his Attack Bonus to fuel his Power Attack. Whenever he successfully damages an opponent with his Power Attack, in the subsequent round, he gains a bonus on Damage Rolls equal to twice the Power Attack bonus he received in the previous round.
Perfection receives a Full Attack (two Slam attacks) at the end of any Charge.
Perfection does not suffer Attacks of Opportunity for Sunder attempts, and deals triple damage when Sundering.
Whenever Perfection drops an opponent or scores a Critical hit, he receives an additional Slam attack and may move 5 ft.
As a Free Action every 1d2 rounds, Perfection may emit a beam of plasma 17.5 miles in length, dealing 155d100 Divine Fire damage. This is a Ranged Touch attack with an Attack Bonus of +251.
Perfection ignores all Hardness and Damage Reduction.
If Perfection is destroyed, he detonates in a spectacular atomic explosion. See the Epic Bestiary Volume 1, page 93 for details. [/sblock]
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