A wasp swarm as a druid's companion?

[ARandomGod]

As the player in question, here are my thoughts:

First off, my interest in having the swarm came purely out of wanting "something different" for my druid. I had no idea how effective a swarm would be in combat until after Piel and I started talking rules.

It is certainly different. I really like the flavor of it. Personally I like it better as a semi-mindless swarm, that attacks everyone... but it could indeed be made into essentially a regular animal companion.

However the auto hit and immune to most attacks is a big item, and without altering those in some form I don't really see it becoming more like an animal companion. As long as it's basically immune like that it's more of a spell effect than an animal.

Dependant on character level, of course, I would reduce the current to d3. It's automatic damage, and 1.5/round of automatic damage is pretty big in the lower levels. As the druid leveled increase the damage some, swarm gets bigger and thicker. I'd probably lessen the DC to cast from 20 to 15, so it would be something casters are more prepared for (they're generally prepared for a DC 15 +spell level concentration check, AND you're adding the automatic damage they're taking each round, so it's going to be higher still, don't forget that).

As for the lesser effect in non-combat... That could be overcomed and keep it a swarm if you wanted. It's basically a hive-mind, a group of the higher intelligent director class could form a 5' cube swarm, just remove most combat/damage abilities from that section (they left the 'warrior' caste behind), and allow them tricks, moving independantly, no damage but they could sicken ... (Actually I think moving the ability from nausiated to sickened would be a better idea all around, nauseated is pretty aweful, at least with sicken they can still do things)...Well, the non-warrior swarm being able to 'sicken' is effectively giving the PC a DOOM cast at will... maybe 1/2 the sicken effect? (Similiar to 'aid another') Increase that later if it seems underpowered. If the directors of the swarm were out on a mission like this, the main swarm would become docile and ineffective (refuse to do anything). So that there's only ever one active bit of the swarm at once. This duality would allow both a swarm that could be effective in non-combat and one effective in combat (when the directors return, you have your mass swarm).

That's what I would do as the GM. You'd get both, a ranged companion and a close combat optimized companion... and the ranged one while not combat optimized would still be very effective in combat (granting -1 to basically all the opponent's rolls).

I'd also demand that you regularly cast summon swarm spells... well, not 'demand' per se, but I'd think it would certainly fit the character well. I'd possibly also give you other swarm related abilities. (minor)

 

[Ferret]

I had an idea. Why not make them completely placid until they are directed at one creature, and make them only take up the 5ft cube.

 

[Pielorinho]

So how does this sound?
-Fill a 5' cube instead of a 10' cube.
-Directable to attack an enemy, but can only move to a new enemy by moving back to the druid first (you have to call them back and then point them out again). Note that throwing them and calling them back are both free actions, as they're the two tricks the swarm knows; getting them to do anything else is a move action.
-Can't be directed to attack an enemy more than a double-move away--they just can't perceive that far. (This greatly limits their utility as an assassination tool: no "Fly up that cliff face and kill the people on top of it one by one!"
-Maintain the 1d6 damage.
-Allow an animal handling trick DC 20 to attack the nearest living creature when they're "thrown" away from the druid: this would be a MEA, but would be a pretty great way to thwart invisibility, since the swarm comes equipped with tremorsense.
-Change Nauseated to Sickened, but keep it at full sickened value (-2 on most stuff).
-Maintain their nastiness against spellcasters.
-Allow victims of the swarm to, by going prone, roll around on the ground and automatically inflict their unarmed damage on the swarm. (This is the other main part of removing their assassination capability, but a creature that decides to "attack" the swarm in this manner makes itself vulnerable to PC attacks).

HOw's that sound?
Daniel

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

You could make the range of attack equal to a short range spell - 25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels, rather than the double move. It would have the advantage of scaling with the Druid's power, which is always a nice touch.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Follow the link!

WoTC has some rules on vermin-based Druid on their website. It includes vermin "animal" companions which, in turn, includes a swarm or two I believe.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a

That might help.

J from Three Haligonians

 

[ARandomGod]

So how does this sound?
-Fill a 5' cube instead of a 10' cube.
-Directable to attack an enemy, but can only move to a new enemy by moving back to the druid first (you have to call them back and then point them out again). Note that throwing them and calling them back are both free actions, as they're the two tricks the swarm knows; getting them to do anything else is a move action.
-Can't be directed to attack an enemy more than a double-move away--they just can't perceive that far. (This greatly limits their utility as an assassination tool: no "Fly up that cliff face and kill the people on top of it one by one!"
-Maintain the 1d6 damage.
-Allow an animal handling trick DC 20 to attack the nearest living creature when they're "thrown" away from the druid: this would be a MEA, but would be a pretty great way to thwart invisibility, since the swarm comes equipped with tremorsense.
-Change Nauseated to Sickened, but keep it at full sickened value (-2 on most stuff).
-Maintain their nastiness against spellcasters.
-Allow victims of the swarm to, by going prone, roll around on the ground and automatically inflict their unarmed damage on the swarm. (This is the other main part of removing their assassination capability, but a creature that decides to "attack" the swarm in this manner makes itself vulnerable to PC attacks).

HOw's that sound?
Daniel

Well, what level druid are we talking about? I'm picturing a pretty low level one, and I say it's over the top. Plus it removes the thing I thought was cool about the entire idea... but that's neither here nor there.

At a high enough level, it seems ok with the possible exception of the DC 20+caster level check to cast a spell. That's far over the top for a lower level animal companion, and possibly overpowered for a mid (10-15) level companion.

Edit: In my campaigns. Your campaigns might be different. However, really, to figure out if you (or the player) thinks this is actually too powerful, pit something just like it against the party caster and see what the party thinks the relative power level is.

 

[Pielorinho]

Well, what level druid are we talking about? I'm picturing a pretty low level one, and I say it's over the top. Plus it removes the thing I thought was cool about the entire idea... but that's neither here nor there.

At a high enough level, it seems ok with the possible exception of the DC 20+caster level check to cast a spell. That's far over the top for a lower level animal companion, and possibly overpowered for a mid (10-15) level companion.

Well, we tried it out last night against an enemy against which it's optimized (a frail spellcaster), and it wasn't too bad at all.

Basically, what it came down to was an automatic 1d6 damage to the spellcaster each round, along with a round or two of the sickened condition.

However, the spellcaster could always move 30' and then cast a spell (since the swarm doesn't threaten, he didn't incur an AoO), negating the concentration check. The inability of the swarm to threaten thus proved a major weakness: a wolf would have drastically limited the swarm's efficacy.

It was great to get the automatic damage, but an animal companion would have done almost as much damage on average, so I'm not so worried about that.

It seemed pretty well balanced. Thanks, all!

Daniel

 

[the Jester]

Cool, keep us informed.

 

[Horizon]

There's also a complete Vermin Druid PrC right here http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1647324#post1647324

You could always change it to reflect your style of play or even make it a basic class.

Meanwhile I was writing up a whole bunch of ideas for a vermin druid as a basic class myself, if anyone is interested I will post what I have so far.

[Edit: I also found out that there used to be such a thing as "Shadow Druids" in 2E. This closely resembles what I had in mind, so if anyone could send me some info on them it would be greatly appreciated.]

 

[ARandomGod]

However, the spellcaster could always move 30' and then cast a spell (since the swarm doesn't threaten, he didn't incur an AoO), negating the concentration check. The inability of the swarm to threaten thus proved a major weakness: a wolf would have drastically limited the swarm's efficacy.
Daniel

Ahhh.... that's right, the caster CAN move out of the swarm. There are no rules allowing it to follow him.

Ok, that doesn't seem at all over the top. The situations wherein the swarm could make the caster decide between concentration checks and AoO's from other people will happen, not terribly often... but it'll be a good ability. But nowhere near over the top.