Aasimar Commoner Proficiencies Question

[Cabral]

What weapons and armor is a level 1 Aasimar Commoner proficient in?

According to the Outsider description, he would be proficient with All simple and martial weapons, Light and Medium armor, and shields except for Tower shields. The Native subtype doesn't change anything.

Is this correct?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Sounds right to me. Do you have a habit of making aasimar commoners? Note also the debate about class skills due to racial bonuses.

 

[DanMcS]

What weapons and armor is a level 1 Aasimar Commoner proficient in?

According to the Outsider description, he would be proficient with All simple and martial weapons, Light and Medium armor, and shields except for Tower shields. The Native subtype doesn't change anything.

Is this correct?

Aasimars and Tieflings don't advance by type hit dice, but by class. I'd only give them stuff from their type if it isn't something that would normally be determined by their class. For instance, they'd get the darkvision 60' (which is mentioned in * As Characters anyway), and they get the Native Outsider ability to be raised and requirement that they eat, basically.

Basically, I'd say no, no free feats.

 

[Cabral]

I picked commoner because it provide the most stripped down proficiencies (Choose one simple weapon proficiency O.O)

Well, I've always thought that Aasimar and Tieflings (and especially Genesai) were a little on the weak side. I thought that maybe they gave them the LA (as opposed to tweaking the stat bonuses) because the outsider type gives them immunities to certain spells (but so does being an elf). This might explain it though.

The argument about them not advancing by hit die so no proficiencies (from race) might be valid though ...

 

[TheEvil]

This has come up in the past and I don't believe it was resolved any of the other times either, but here is the argument I have put forth:

The Outsider template gives you features and traits.

Features: An outsider has the following features.
—8-sided Hit Dice.
—Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
—Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
—Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
—Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
—Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
—Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

In the PHB, races have traits and classes have features. Racial traits do not depend on hit dice, class features do. If you follow that naming convention, then the outsider without racial hit dice gets all the traits and none of the feature listed under the outsider template.

It is worth noting, I would not say that aasimar would gain any armor proficiencies as the only entry given is for an aasimar warrior.

 

[Cabral]

You could argue that the line "Racial Feats: An aasimar gains feats according to its class levels" replaces the Outsider entry but the language is additive rather than replacing the Outsider traits ... On the other hand, no where does it say an Aasimar has Outsider traits...

 

[TheEvil]

Well, that would be one way to read it...

 

[Infiniti2000]

The Outsider template gives you features and traits.

Be careful in your terminology. Outsider is a type, not a template, and not a race.

Btw, the counterargument for allowing the proficiencies is because of this statement in the outsider type, with my emphasis: "An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry)." Some view the bolded text to indicate that since the aasimar description does not provide for the proficiencies, but it provides for everything else, means that the designers clearly intended not to let the aasimar be automatically proficient in them. Additionally, you get into the problem of Humanoids and the fact that "Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor." If this is the case, then there's a seeming conflict with a human rogue, who is not proficient with shields explicitly by the class description.

 

[TheEvil]

Be careful in your terminology. Outsider is a type, not a template, and not a race.

Btw, the counterargument for allowing the proficiencies is because of this statement in the outsider type, with my emphasis: "An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry)." Some view the bolded text to indicate that since the aasimar description does not provide for the proficiencies, but it provides for everything else, means that the designers clearly intended not to let the aasimar be automatically proficient in them. Additionally, you get into the problem of Humanoids and the fact that "Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor." If this is the case, then there's a seeming conflict with a human rogue, who is not proficient with shields explicitly by the class description.

Eh, just one more thing to add to the 'It would have been nice if they had been more clear about this' pile.
Certainly it can be interpreted either way and I don't think it will break things either way you do it, with martial weapons or without them.

 

[Cabral]

Actually, it's wierd how "All outsiders gain proficiency with all martial and simple weapons unless otherwise stated" seems so much more powerful than "All outsiders gain Militia (FRCS, grants proficiency with all martial and simple weapons) as bonus feat unless otherwise stated" ...