Abilities in exchange for Experience points: Good or Bad Idea.

[WizarDru]

Note: I skipped the last two pages, because I'm lazy.
...

My position stands. I have yet to see any good way of giving charactes power beyond their race and class that is balanced other than the wealth limit rules.

Thanks for that vote of confidence. Ya know, if you skip what everyone else says on a topic, that might be why you haven't seen any way of doing it that's balanced.

I'm not seeing where Path of the Swords 'Fighting Styles' is unbalanced. The combination of x.p. cost and level-requirement seems to work pretty effectively, to me. Most of these systems have levels of diminishing returns. In a low magic game, in particular, they would be more powerful...but they would also be more necessary, depending on how the game is run.

I think hong's point is valid, that the issue here is that a good DM needs to be vigilant, whether it be xp-for-feats, new spells, a new prestige class or a simple rule-abuse. Which, as he points out, is not news. Mind you, since hong is a 1st level character who can cast a quickened wanger-spam-of-death at will, he might not be the most impartial judge.

 

[IceBear]

So, is Path of the Sword worth picking up?

IceBear

 

[kenjib]

But the 1st level guys will not be just as powerful as the others though. After all, they have 1 hit die. They're adventuring with a couple 10 hit die characters. What are their odds for survival? Pretty bad, I'd wager. So, while not as powerful, they certainly are front-loaded, and they'll die young.

In a previous post, you said that ECL can be used to balance out a character who buys abilities in this fashion. Therefore, a 1st level +9ECL character should roughly match a 10th level character. Here you seem to be implying otherwise. Are we once again back to eye-balling it and diminishing the utility of the CR/EL system?

Then you won't mind if I skip this post.

Seriously, there's some good input from everyone back there. You should read it.

As of yet, nobody has addressed the problem introduced by the XP cost becoming increasingly insignificant as you get higher in level. When you start getting around 1000XP for a single equal-CR opponent (not to mention higher CR opponents), 1000XP becomes relatively insignificant compared to the benefit of an entire school of bonus abilities. Training time requirements are worthless because the availability of time varies so dramatically from campaign to campaign and there are no supporting mechanisms in the system for measuring or limiting time (as opposed to wealth). He points this out in his post, as I did back in my first post.

At first level, a +1ECL is worth a few of these virtual feats maybe. At 19th level, a +1ECL becomes worth dozens of these virtual feats?

Yeah, it's a problem with magic items too, albeit a lesser one due to the issues I presented in my second post. Is it a good idea, though, to find the loopholes and weak points of a system and expand upon them? I don't think so, myself. I'd rather focus on the strong points.

I think hong's point is valid, that the issue here is that a good DM needs to be vigilant, whether it be xp-for-feats, new spells, a new prestige class or a simple rule-abuse. Which, as he points out, is not news.

Do you, as a DM, buy new supplements to increase your workload or to make your job easier? Why use something that you have to micromanage and arbitrarily rule against when someone crosses the invisible "abuse" line when you can just use a different mechanic that doesn't have these problems but provides the same benefits of customization (prestige classes and to a lesser extent feats)?

I still fail to see what benefits these provide that a prestige class doesn't. All they do is circumvent the levelling system, but that's the very source of the problem because levelling is supposed to be a concrete gauge of power in this game. Sure, there are some loopholes in the game already (item creation and getting level drained are pretty much all I can think of though -- since there are guidelines for starting stats), but the more factors you introduce that obfiscate this relationship, the more difficult the DM's job becomes.

You gain a level -- you get new abilities. You take a prestige class -- you get unique abilities and refine your character concept. It works well. I don't think it's healthy for a level/class game system in the long run to continue to add mechanics that further distance the relationship between level and power.

Anyways, if they work for your group, that's great. I won't use them though. I find that there are more effective alternatives to achieve the same purpose.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, if I were to design a certain fighting style in my campaign world I'd probably do the path of a pseudo-prestige class. Basically you'd have to find a teacher, take some training (ie roleplay) and then when you leveled you could take the "Extreme Swordmaster Fighting Style" prestige class . This class would effectively give you all the benefits of your present class but give you Ability X as a class ability.

Still, if spending XP for abilities works in your campaigns I have no issues with it.

IceBear

 

[Crothian]

So, is Path of the Sword worth picking up?

IceBear

I think so, it supports mid to high level play with the addition of Legendary Prestige Classes and the new fighting styles. It's more combat oriented then I had hoped, but still a good solid book.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=currentprod&which=ffgpathswor

 

[WizarDru]

So, is Path of the Sword worth picking up?

IceBear

I wouldn't have picked it up on my own, but one of my players purchased it, and lent it to me. I will most likely pick it up at some point. The presentation is pretty good, and I think it's well written and balanced. As Crothian points out, it's very combat-oriented, and suprisingly more Monk focused than I expected (which isn't a bad thing, just odd considering that it's named 'Path of the Sword' and not 'Path of the Fist').

You gain a level -- you get new abilities. You take a prestige class -- you get unique abilities and refine your character concept. It works well. I don't think it's healthy for a level/class game system in the long run to continue to add mechanics that further distance the relationship between level and power.

Well, personally, I'm not sure I see this as any different as gaining certain kinds of magic items, in principle. Could this process be equally well served by a prestige class? I don't doubt that it could. I also think that this could be a substitute for Prestige Classes, if a DM so desired, or a supplement to them. It's an option, to be used or not used as desired.

I'm not advocating some severance of the relationship between levels, classes and characters. I see these, if anything, as either very limited opt-in templates or as very odd magic items. What's the difference between gaining evasion from an always-on ring or from a fighting style? Effectively, not that much. Especially if you make the new ability a supernatural one.

That, and I don't see the Prestige class as the universal panacea. Some characters don't want to have to multiclass out of monk or paladin, for example (and a monk is the perfect kind of character for a fighting style). Fighting Styles also can function differently than PrCs. Some characters may not want to join the thieve's guild, but they might want to go on a quest to find the Master Rat, and ask him to teach them some skill for a few game weeks, some xp and some gold. If I'm going to create a custom prestige class every time, I'm not sure I'm saving myself work either way.

All that said, I don't much expect these to see use in my games that often, if at all. As far as powergaming abuses go, these are not very good ones, from what I've read. I also have no intention of blocking Prestige Classes, which I really like, and so do my players. I just like the idea of having another avenue open to me.

 

[Daelin_Farseer]

I wouldn't like to be a DM who introduces an opportunity and later imposes a hard bound because some players have used it more then he expected.

Over on USENET, rec.games.frp.dnd, someone tracked down what is claimed to be the original 'prestige race' article that was submitted to Dragon. Of interest in this article is that alterations of this manner could only be made at a rate of one per level. And most of them were far too expensive to use at low levels.

Seems like a fair compromise between allowing a nifty mechanic and not going overboard.

 

[IceBear]

Well, personally, I'm not sure I see this as any different as gaining certain kinds of magic items, in principle. Could this process be equally well served by a prestige class? I don't doubt that it could. I also think that this could be a substitute for Prestige Classes, if a DM so desired, or a supplement to them. It's an option, to be used or not used as desired.

I'm not advocating some severance of the relationship between levels, classes and characters. I see these, if anything, as either very limited opt-in templates or as very odd magic items. What's the difference between gaining evasion from an always-on ring or from a fighting style? Effectively, not that much. Especially if you make the new ability a supernatural one.

That, and I don't see the Prestige class as the universal panacea. Some characters don't want to have to multiclass out of monk or paladin, for example (and a monk is the perfect kind of character for a fighting style). Fighting Styles also can function differently than PrCs. Some characters may not want to join the thieve's guild, but they might want to go on a quest to find the Master Rat, and ask him to teach them some skill for a few game weeks, some xp and some gold. If I'm going to create a custom prestige class every time, I'm not sure I'm saving myself work either way.

All that said, I don't much expect these to see use in my games that often, if at all. As far as powergaming abuses go, these are not very good ones, from what I've read. I also have no intention of blocking Prestige Classes, which I really like, and so do my players. I just like the idea of having another avenue open to me. [/B]

Yeah, I guess his main point is there is a an existing method in the rules (feats/prestige classes) to modify your character so adding yet another way might be too much.

To address those not wanting to multiclass I'd basically make that level of prestige class = what he would have gotten if he took his regular level, just that he would get that class ability. Yes, that's cludgy in that I have to record that Prestige Level 1 = Fighter Level 7+class ability for one character and Prestige Level 1 = Ranger Level 8+class ability for another, but it's probably how I would have done it in my world. Then again, I might just have designed a school that was hard to get into but once you got in and paid your tution fee you learnt a specific feat/ability after a certain period of time.

IceBear

 

[LokiDR]

Power with cost

Power with cost:

That is what I see as the problem. Any time your character gets some new ability, from class or item or whatever, there should be a balancing factor. Items count against your gold per level, which can be managed to maintain balance. Abilities in class (base, PrC or ECL) are figured into your level, and therefore experience (no matter how you figure XP, APL is in there).

So, if you use XP for 'fighting styles', what is the balance? Kreynolds says change it in for ECL, which makes sense to me. But if you spend 1000xp for non-dispellable evasion that doesn't change your ECL or count against your gp/level, what stops rampant use? Note, this argument works against several spells, expecially permancy, as well as magic items, to a lesser extent. I think permancy has the same problem and should be changed.

A lot of the argument against abuse is "my players won't abuse it" or "the system seems balanced". That can be fine in your game, where you control all aspects, but it destroys a vital compont of D20 - interoperability. I know there are strong and weak PrCs, feats, spells, ect, but LEVEL is a good starting point. If level doesn't even mean that much, you have taken away a very cool element of the rule system.

A 20th level fighter who spent a lot of XP on styles is better than a 20th level fighter who didn't, assuming comparable magic items. I don't like rules that create that divide.

But spells and magic item creation do exactly this under core rules. Money/level helps balance magic items, but what about permancy? My solution: give the non-spellcasters the same chance to spend XP, or elimate it entirely for permenent boosts. Commune (and other spells) still takes some XP, just prevent its constant use, but it doesn't give you an ability you didn't have forever, and it gives you a solution that wins the party experience.


On a side note, Hong's system for spending XP for items has been mentioned. I use a similar system, but it isn't really relevant here. The XP spent prevents leveling and the item counts against money/level limit. It is only an alternate way to pay for an item.

Someone else mentioned XP~GP and that either should be able to be spent for stuff. But these "kits" don't affect level and gold. You don't get an item, you get an ability that can't be taken away. If there is no balance (ECL or gp/level), you got ahead of some one who didn't get the ability over the long run.

Finally (sorry about the length) I would like to add my vote to the "abilities cost more at higher levels" that comes with ECL but doesn't with XP-for-abilities.

 

[Ashy]

Over on USENET, rec.games.frp.dnd, someone tracked down what is claimed to be the original 'prestige race' article that was submitted to Dragon. Of interest in this article is that alterations of this manner could only be made at a rate of one per level. And most of them were far too expensive to use at low levels.

Seems like a fair compromise between allowing a nifty mechanic and not going overboard.

Considering I was one of the fellows that wrote that article for Dragon, I'd love to see that article...

EDIT: clarified which article was which.