Abilities: More, less or just right

[Sadrik]

I don't know if I agree with you here, since Clerics don't get Spot or Listen as class skills. This means, by definition, that they cannot be as good at noticing things as, say, a Rogue, Ranger, or Monk.

Well of course, but out of all the other classes that dont have these skills clerics are very good, in fact better than the other classes.

Truthfully I think of priests and the clergy as being more wise than charismatic, although being charismatic is certainly an asset to them. If you examine religious documents (from whatever religion I'd guess, though I'm no expert), they always speak glowingly of the 'wise man' not the 'charismatic man'.

In all reality, I think intelligence and charisma are likely the most important stat for a real world priest. What is the iconic wise-man or wise-woman but one who is knowledgeable in the tenants and rituals of their faith, or Intelligent. We however are talking about fantasy with clerics who shoot flame strikes and blade barriers. The point of this discussion is that wisdom and charisma are ill-defined, just like the iconic wise-man or wise-woman is, and to apply the mechanical bonuses and penalties to the stats in a sensical way.

There are varying versions on what people think each stat should mean. The two biggest culprits are Wisdom and charisma. They are strange do wierd things and don't make a whole bunch of sense. Charisma for instance, why does having a great personality make you cast magic like a sorcerer? Because it is written in the rules thats why. Wisdom is common sense, willpower, intuition, and perception. I know what you mean by "the wise-man" but really do any of those traits make you think, "yeah, that's wise." For me it doesnt.

(All definitions are from merriam-webster on line dictionary)
Here is the definition of intuition the most closely attributed trait:
1 : quick and ready insight
2 a : immediate apprehension or cognition b : knowledge or conviction gained by intuition c : the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference

Innately knowing something or to infer something is not necissarily what I wise-person does. The iconic wise-person is an old man who does nothing fast but gathers the information reflects upon his experiences and gives wisdom in the form of some fortune cookie sound byte.

Here is wisdom:
1 a : accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : KNOWLEDGE b : ability to discern inner qualities and relationships : INSIGHT c : good sense : JUDGMENT d : generally accepted belief <challenges what has become accepted wisdom among many historians -- Robert Darnton>
2 : a wise attitude or course of action
3 : the teachings of the ancient wise men

Again in d&d terms this sounds a lot like intelligence.

Here is Wise Man (which I found in there too!):
1 : a man of unusual learning, judgment, or insight : SAGE
2 : a man versed in esoteric lore (as of magic or astrology); especially : MAGUS 1b

Can anyone say wizard?

Now here is Charisma:
1 : an extraordinary power (as of healing) given a Christian by the Holy Spirit for the good of the church
2 a : a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (as a political leader) b : a special magnetic charm or appeal <the charisma of a popular actor>

Very interesting... Now you tell me which one is more correct...

A lot of people feel that the charisma being "force of personality" is more important to a will save than any other stat. If one is strongly rooted to their cause it leaves them more apt to ward off mental effects.

I don't know, its just a game but I learned something from doing this post that I didnt know before I wrote it.

Sadrik

 

[Al]

I like the ability score system from the CRPG Arcanum, which has four physical (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Beauty) and four mental (Intelligence, Willpower, Perception and Charisma). Splitting Wisdom into Willpower and Perception seems to be very popular, and both could get a beefed-up role. Splitting Charisma and Beauty would solve a lot of problems, not least the whole Intimidate debate.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

I think the ability score system is perfect just the way it is!

 

[S'mon]

I think Strength, Dexterity, Willpower and Charm would be a good set.

Strength - includes stamina
Dexterity - skill, speed, agility
Willpower - resistance to magic, leadership, most direct magic attacks
Charm - appearance, seduction, illusion and charm magics

 

[General Barron]

I haven't read all the posts yet, but here is my contribution:


I'm not the biggest fan of the charisma stat. It seems like it has more of a place in a computer RPG where there isn't any true role playing, but in a real RPG, it's hard to find the right balance between role and roll playing for social situations. I do see some use for it though, but compared to the other stats, it seems way underpowered. Add to that the way that it's definition has been kinda stretched to include things that are strikingly close to what Wisdom is supposed to be... and I'd suggest:

(wis, cha) less useful than (int)
so combine WIS + CHA

Next, I'd look at the physical stats. They seem more balanced and useful than wis/cha, but it is still pretty clear that Dex is generally more useful than str and con. So I'd suggest combining the two into a single stat representing how hardy your body is:

(str, con) less useful than (dex)
so combine STR + CON

Now you would still have symmetry between the mental and the physical, and you would be MUCH closer to making all stats equally useful (in general). Game-mechanic wise, this is a very simple thing to do, so this could easily be implemented without any trouble.

 

[Sadrik]

S'mon and General Barron,

I proposed almost the exact same thing here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=136709

I also have the stat mods for all of the races.

BTW GB the str and con are not neccissarily weeker than dex.

Sadrik

 

[S'mon]

Personally I dislike INT as a stat, because it's hard to distinguish between player & PC INT. I think my ideal game would might have just STR DEX & WILL, with a wounds system based off STR ("damage > STR = major wound" kind of thing).

 

[General Barron]

BTW GB the str and con are not neccissarily weeker than dex.

I know they aren't on the same scale as CHA vs INT, but I do think that DEX is generally more useful. Why? Because ALL classes benefit from dex, since it improves reflex saves (very useful), and it improves AC (which is used by all classes, even rear-lines wizards, etc). For warriors, it also improves attack rolls for ranged weapons, and with the finess feat, for melee weapons. Oh yeah, and don't forget that most physical skills use dex.

CON is also useful to all classes, since it gives HP and saves, but STR is really mainly helpful to melee warriors. So they all have their merits, but I think that overall, DEX is the most helpful stat. Obviously different classes need different stats more, and all of what I said is debatable, so I'm not really trying to push my point too hard here.

It's hard to distinguish between player & PC INT.

True, just like it is hard to distinguish between player & PC wisdom, or player & PC charisma. But I think there are valid reasons to have an INT stat especially, and perhaps a CHA stat as well.

INT can represent how quickly and easily a character can learn new things. IMC, this means giving a bonus to EXP based on INT. It is also obviously helpful for many skills, as a way of determining just how good a character is at brewing a potion or some other in-game task. Another use for INT (or knowledge skills) is to determine whether or not a character knows a piece of in-game information. How many daughters does the local priest have? Where does the rare Boca root grow? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie-pop? The player has no way of knowing these unless the DM tells him, and the DM can use int to determine whether or not he should tell the player.

Obviously, INT should never be used as a substitute to the player's wits ("make an INT check to see if you solve the puzzle"), but I think it has its place.