D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Yaarel]

Show me any evidence from any edition that Constitution is the result of cultural influence and endurance training, et al, rather than natural robustness, health, and endurance.

Have you never known two people from similar backgrounds with wildly different levels of health? One as healthy as an ox, basically never sick, and the other always coughing and sneezing? It's not always about training; sometimes someone is simply healthier than someone else.

Your claim is like saying that Intelligence (in D&D) is the result of education and study. But you can have a high Int character who has absolutely zero education.

In 4e and 5e, for example, races can improve any ability, including Constitution, by leveling. Making the abilities themselves 100% nurture and 0% nature.

 

[the Jester]

What about all the other related AD&D rules? Strength caps for women and small demihumans? Level caps for all non-humans? Class restrictions based on race?

You're talking about stuff that has been stripped from the game longer than most of its players have been alive. Come on now.

 

[Malmuria]

You're talking about stuff that has been stripped from the game longer than most of its players have been alive. Come on now.

My point is that early dnd (1e and b/x) envisioned a relatively specific set of archetypes and provided mechanics for reinforcing those. I can see the appeal of that. One of the legacies of that in 5e is racial asi, but I would argue that does a poor job of reinforcing archetype. I don't see how removing this one largely vestigial aspect of the game really makes it "not dnd" anymore, given that so many other similar mechanics from 1e have long been gone.

 

[jmartkdr2]

So, a question for the group:

If we take away the +2 dex form elves, we do create a small issue/problem in that there would no longer be any mechanical reinforcement to the idea that 'elves are graceful.' Elven grace is definitely a trope, and probably important enough for mechanics to represent it, and in the 5e PHB the only mechanic that seems to do this is the racial ASI.

(note that whether +2 dex does a good job is irrelevant - it's the only support, so taking it away means no support at all.)

Is there any other race where this issue would come up, though? Dwarves have other 'tough' mechanics, halflings are still small and lucky, half-orcs are still ferocious, gnomes and tieflings are still magical, dragonborn still have breath weapons. Only elves lose mechanical representation of a trope, as far as I can tell.

Am I missing something here?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Nobody is saying impossible. (EDIT: I will say, its IMPOSSIBLE, for me to out jump an NBA Center, or fight through a double team block by NFL linemen, at least assuming I am following the rules, and they are performing at their average potential.)

this would be a lot easier if you read the first two sentences, though I admit I was rushing a bit in typing them.

I agree no individual is saying that it is impossible, however a model of biological determinism IS saying it is impossible. That is part of the reason to reject that sort of model. You say it is impossible for you to fight through a double team block by the NFL linemen. Would you say that it was impossible for you because your biology was determined at birth and your strength had a hard limit you could never surpass? That no amount of training, diet, excersice or desire to be a football player in your youth would have ever let you achieve a level of strength that could make that possible?

Saying "I'm weaker than a lineman now" isn't biological determinism. That is a statement of your current physicality. Saying "I was born unable to ever be stronger than a lineman" is biological determinism. Your biology determined your limitations.

Nope.

Why not? What makes an axe swung by a gnome into your throat any less deadly? What makes a gnome less able to take a blow? Height alone tells you nothing except height.

Good thing they can be effective. You do not need to minmax your stats.

I know baffles people. It baffled me. But there is a noticeable difference between starting with a +2 and starting with a +3 in your primary. Realistically we think it shouldn't be there, but I've seen it again and again and again and again.


And this isn't about min-maxing or powergaming. It isn't. I know people want to make this what this is about, so they can dismiss us for our impure hearts, but that isn't how this works. Heck, we have two people in this thread who said the exact same thing a few months back, who are now saying "you know... it really does open up options to let me play what I want to play."

Indeed, averages. 'Most of the time'. 'More often than not.' 'Often of an alignment of X'.

No problem at all.

But that only lasts until you start assigning hard numbers to try and force things to conform to those averages. If "Elves are usually graceful" means that they get a +2 Dex, why doesn't a graceful dwarf get +2 Dex?

See, part of this issue is a change in what these numbers mean. I can fully accept that back in the original days, the modifiers were meant to shift the bell curve model to model a real-world distribution of stats... but we aren't trying to model population numbers any more. People aren't thinking in those terms. The importance of shifting the bell curve for the population no longer matters, and instead we are focusing on individuals. And if we are looking at individuals, then the modifiers being floating makes the most sense.

 

[Malmuria]

So, a question for the group:

If we take away the +2 dex form elves, we do create a small issue/problem in that there would no longer be any mechanical reinforcement to the idea that 'elves are graceful.' Elven grace is definitely a trope, and probably important enough for mechanics to represent it, and in the 5e PHB the only mechanic that seems to do this is the racial ASI.

(note that whether +2 dex does a good job is irrelevant - it's the only support, so taking it away means no support at all.)

Is there any other race where this issue would come up, though? Dwarves have other 'tough' mechanics, halflings are still small and lucky, half-orcs are still ferocious, gnomes and tieflings are still magical, dragonborn still have breath weapons. Only elves lose mechanical representation of a trope, as far as I can tell.

Am I missing something here?

"Elven Grace":

all elves are proficient in acrobatics. If they get that proficiency from another source, their proficiency is doubled (expertise)

or

if an elf fails a dexterity saving throw they can choose to succeed instead. They can do this a number of times equal to their proficiency bonus per long rest.


something like that?

 

[jmartkdr2]

"Elven Grace":

all elves are proficient in acrobatics. If they get that proficiency from another source, their proficiency is doubled (expertise)

or

if an elf fails a dexterity saving throw they can choose to succeed instead. They can do this a number of times equal to their proficiency bonus per long rest.


something like that?

Would be a nice addition, but is there any other race that needs an addition?

Because if it's an elf-specific problem with removing ASIs, than it's not a good argument against removing ASIs in general.

 

[mrpopstar]

I'm sure you do.

Though I haven't experienced it in real life as an Irish person living in Ireland, I certainly know all the wonderful things people say about Irish and Irish-Americans, how we're all violent, and drunk, and oh so very very religious and God-fearing folk.

Which naturally describes me and tens of thousands of young non drinking non-church going folk who couldn't hurt a fly.

...

I'm not saying I haven't laughed at some of the funny 'stereotypes' made up about Irish people or in particular about people from different counties. Or the commonality of various things in Irish life. But saying all stereotypes have truth to them is dangerous. Yes, Ireland and its people do in some capacity have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, but it's not an ingrained aspect of Irishness. Neither is violence. And while Catholicism and religion have had a big impact on Irish culture... that has started to change.

So be careful approaching stereotypes. They can lead you down ways of thinking that are simply inaccurate, and refuse to look at how important individuality versus someone's culture or community is.

I understand.

Irish America is plagued by mental health struggles, alcoholism and substance abuse, violence and criminality, insular religiosity, etc. (and in many ways all of these things are related).

The stereotypes are true, they just don't tell the whole story (leaving out that what you're observing are symptoms of generational trauma).

That's what makes them harmful.

 

[Malmuria]

Would be a nice addition, but is there any other race that needs an addition?

Because if it's an elf-specific problem with removing ASIs, than it's not a good argument against removing ASIs in general.

My preference would be that all the races have available to them a selection of abilities (racial feats) that are relatively powerful and create highly thematic characters, but with plenty of options to play with or against type. Something like pathfinder 2e but less byzantine.

 

[the Jester]

Yes, that was my point. Being in a lower weight class doesn’t mean you’re “worse” at the sport in question. Being in a higher weight class doesn’t mean you’re “better” at it. There is more to these sports than pure physical mass, and the division of weight classes recognizes that fact.

If the goal of the sport of boxing (f'rex) is to pummel your opponent more and harder than your opponent pummels you, then when you take away the entirely artificial restriction of weight classes, it's pretty apparent that bigger and more massive boxers have a significant edge. If we measure "better" or "worse" at a sport as being more able to attain the sport's goal(s), well.