D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Yaarel]

I'll ask again, and I'll even add a clarifier. Where is the evidence in the game, from any edition, that your starting ability scores are the result of anything but natural ability?

Your approach is fine. But unless I am mistaken- and I could very well be- no edition has ever laid out the claim that your starting stats are strictly the result of training and experience.

For example, in 5e Tashas, one can swap the race ability score improvement from one ability to an other. This means, there is no biological essence.

Arguably, the tens and hundreds of elf subraces that have constellated the stars of the D&D editions − are themselves examples, of nurture, not nature.

 

[Undrave]

I think it should be feasible to have all classes with at least 3 different stats as possible main stats without the need for multiclassing or feats.

I'd like to see the return to 4e style subclass where your secondary stat can change.

For exemple, you had 4e Sorcerers who wanted STR or DEX as a secondary (I think INT too? I didn't play Sorceres), you had Rogues who wanted CHA or STR, some Barbarian favoured CON and others WIS and so forth. I thought it was a neat way to make subclass matter.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, a question for the group:

If we take away the +2 dex form elves, we do create a small issue/problem in that there would no longer be any mechanical reinforcement to the idea that 'elves are graceful.' Elven grace is definitely a trope, and probably important enough for mechanics to represent it, and in the 5e PHB the only mechanic that seems to do this is the racial ASI.

(note that whether +2 dex does a good job is irrelevant - it's the only support, so taking it away means no support at all.)

Is there any other race where this issue would come up, though? Dwarves have other 'tough' mechanics, halflings are still small and lucky, half-orcs are still ferocious, gnomes and tieflings are still magical, dragonborn still have breath weapons. Only elves lose mechanical representation of a trope, as far as I can tell.

Am I missing something here?

I wouldn't have an issue with it, mostly because Elves have so many tropes, I don't think we'd even really realize the loss.

 

[Yaarel]

@the Jester

In the 5e Players Handbook, in the Chapter 1: Introduction: Step-by-Step Characters: Choose a Race,

"The race you choose contributes to your character's identity in an important way, by establishing a general appearance and the natural talents gained from culture and ancestry."

These "natural" talents of a race can come from "culture". The 5e view is, these starting ability scores can express a mix of nature and nurture, and it is up to the player, to think about what the character concept is, and what the character background has been upto the point of level 1.

 

[Undrave]

Arguably, the tens and hundreds of elf subraces that have constellated the stars of the D&D editions − are themselves examples, of nurture, not nature.

And let's not forget that Nature VS Nurture is not a hard binary. It's a REALLY complicated issue.

Take, for exemple, Star Trek's Klingon. Their culture has a strong emphasis on honourable warriors with lots of ceremonial combat. In such a society, the strongest specimen would have a greater chance of being selected for reproduction, resulting in stronger children, over many generations. But it's not impossible for a Klingon to become an Engineer (otherwise they would have never discovered Warp Drives on their own).

I don't think D&D should shoulder the burden of solving Nature VS Nurture, but instead focus on being a fun game that welcomes all players. "Realism" and "Versimilitude" can take a back seat... for a change.

 

[Undrave]

So, a question for the group:

If we take away the +2 dex form elves, we do create a small issue/problem in that there would no longer be any mechanical reinforcement to the idea that 'elves are graceful.' Elven grace is definitely a trope, and probably important enough for mechanics to represent it, and in the 5e PHB the only mechanic that seems to do this is the racial ASI.

(note that whether +2 dex does a good job is irrelevant - it's the only support, so taking it away means no support at all.)

Is there any other race where this issue would come up, though? Dwarves have other 'tough' mechanics, halflings are still small and lucky, half-orcs are still ferocious, gnomes and tieflings are still magical, dragonborn still have breath weapons. Only elves lose mechanical representation of a trope, as far as I can tell.

Am I missing something here?

Nobody cares about elf. The Knife-eared snobs!

How about they just get to reroll a DEX save a number of times per day equal to their proficiency bonus?

 

[Yaarel]

So, a question for the group:

If we take away the +2 dex form elves, we do create a small issue/problem in that there would no longer be any mechanical reinforcement to the idea that 'elves are graceful.' Elven grace is definitely a trope, and probably important enough for mechanics to represent it, and in the 5e PHB the only mechanic that seems to do this is the racial ASI.

(note that whether +2 dex does a good job is irrelevant - it's the only support, so taking it away means no support at all.)

Is there any other race where this issue would come up, though? Dwarves have other 'tough' mechanics, halflings are still small and lucky, half-orcs are still ferocious, gnomes and tieflings are still magical, dragonborn still have breath weapons. Only elves lose mechanical representation of a trope, as far as I can tell.

Am I missing something here?

I am happy to delete Dexterity from the elf.

Even when it said "elves are graceful", I took that to mean, they are artistically beautiful (Charisma), not really in the sense of body-coordination.



In 3e, if I recall correctly:

The gray elf scores are: Intelligence +1, Dexterity +1, Strength −1, and Constitution −1.

But the sun elf scores are simply: Intelligence +1, Constitution −1.

The sun elf has nothing to do with Dexterity.



Similarly, in 4e. Where either Int/Cha or Int/Dex are possible, Intelligence is primary.

The eladrin elf scores can be Intelligence +2 and Charisma +2.

This eladrin elf has nothing to do with Dexterity.



Now in the 5e Zendikar setting, relating to Magic The Gathering, the Zendikar elves have Wisdom +2. Wisdom is primary.

All of the elven nations but one have nothing to do with Dexterity.



Even going way back to Basic D&D, the elf class merges both Wizard and Fighter, and its scores require: Intelligence Strength.

Again, this elf has nothing to do with Dexterity.






Dexterity is nonessential for the elf concept.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes. It just is that doing this well is hard. Doing it in a lazy way is easy: just choose which stat to use for a thing. But personally I find that highly unsatisfying as it trivialises the stats; different stats should still mean different things. How fighters currently work is actually a good example how to do this well; you can build an effective dex or strength fighter, but they will play differently and have different feel. This is how it should be. I also feel all classes should be MAD. Whilst it makes sense for certain classes to require certain stats, it is not good that one stats is just so superior for the class that it and only it is the correct choice. And this is not only an issue due racial ASIs, it is a bigger issue than that. Clear prime stats for classes leads to sameyness. Every wizard will have the same int, every rogue the same the dex etc.

Do they though?

Fighter AC 18, dealing 1d8+4 damage on hit. Can you tell if I'm using Dex or strength yet? What if I made them a battlemaster with a DC of 15 and pushing attack, precision attack and menacing attack?

If I said I have a stealth of +6, does that mean that I am primarily using dexterity to attack, or did I just get lucky on my rolls and have a high dex, but it is lower than my strength?


Sure, you can have some differences between a high dex fighter who has stealth and a high strength fighter who doesn't, but that is all in the skills outside of combat, nothing really shows the difference during combat.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Again, if the argument is that if the game doesn't model the thing accurately it shouldn't model the thing at all we can just throw away all the rules. D&D models practically nothing accurately.

Then throw them away. Throw away the rules for every game, because none of them model the real world with 100% accuracy. That isn't the point.

But, if we acknowledge that the the game isn't meant to represent biological reality accurately... then stop getting hung up on biological reality and using it to justify game rules. Stop saying that because bulls are stronger than grasshoppers then we absolutely need the mechanics to show that a half-orc is stronger than a human. We don't. Especially since there is no reason that any individual half-orc can't be more graceful than a human, more intelligent, more wise, more charismatic, tougher, or the opposite.

I don't need the game to tell me what the statistical average strength is for the half-orc population and that it is on average 5% higher than the statisical average strength of the human population, when you control for environment, nutrition, training, mass, and on and on and on. I need the game to let me make a half-orc character who matches the character I want to play. The individual, not the population.

 

[billd91]

I am happy to delete Dexterity from the elf.

In 3e, if I recall correctly:
The gray elf scores are: Intelligence +1, Dexterity +1, Strength −1, and Constitution −1.
But the sun elf scores are simply: Intelligence +1, Constitution −1.
The sun elf has nothing to do with Dexterity.

Similarly, in 5e. Where either Int/Cha or Int/Dex are possible.
The eladrin elf scores can be Intelligence +2 and Charisma +2.
This eladrin elf has nothing to do with Dexterity.

Even going way back to Basic D&D, the elf class merges both Wizard and Fighter, and its scores require: Intelligence Strength.
Again, this elf has nothing to do with Dexterity.

Dexterity is nonessential for the elf concept.

That is some serious cherry picking. The 3e sun elves may have eschewed Dexterity (and that's specifically called out as an exception in 3e's FR campaign book which implies that Dexterity is still an important elven hallmark), but all of the other 4 elf flavors had a Dex bonus. And the eladrin in Mordenkainen's is an elf subrace - so the +2 to Dex would apply.