D&D 5E (2014) Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[mrpopstar]

Exactly. Which is why there's no particular need for good cultures.

There's no particular need to do away with them either as their existence is rather benign and really not of much consequence in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Clear good guys vs. clear bad guys is what a lot of us want to play. I get enough of nuanced civilizations that have some good features and some bad features every day in real life. A lot of times I don't want to go through more of that in my RPG play.

You can still have that, but some of us are just a little tired of the lines being so thick and insurmountable. Especially since the lore already gives us some pretty bad things that are just... not addressed.

For example, the Elven genocide of the Quaggoths in the Monster Manual. The bitter war between the Dwarves and Duergar because of victim blaming the Duergar. And those are just two off the top of my head. Digging, you could probably find more.

 

[Scott Christian]

The literary tropes of this fantasy game come from an era, when many people are avowed racists and even "Darwinian" scientists are thinking about a taxonomy of other human cultures as separate species. Racism is the worldview that D&D fantasizes about.

The authors of Cthulhu, Conan, Lord of the Rings, and so on, are all to some degree imperialist, racist, supremacists. Even the ones trying to pioneer a way out of it, are still part of a world of racist assumptions.

So this fictional game is a play about racist assumptions.

It is like a game about: "pretend that all of these unjust ideas are true".

If this is the case, then you definitely should not be playing D&D. I mean, if the core assumption of the game you are discussing is racist in your view, then why even spend time on a forum that discusses these ideals you abhor? Why not write your own game or find one that doesn't peddle in these hurtful ideas? Why spend time on it when you can promote change through your ideas or pocketbook? Because if it is embedded, then the only thing to do is tear the house down.

 

[Maxperson]

What is against type for a Genasi anyways? Or an Aasimar? Or a Shifter?

No idea. I'm not aware of any specific types for those races.

Seems to me that there are a lot of races without a "Defined type" to go against.

I agree. That doesn't mean that some don't have types or that those types are bad.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not really. To have clear good guys and bad guys means that the game is setting up these encounters and situations as being with good guys and bad guys. Hobgoblins might be of all alignments, but the ones the PCs run into are the evil kind. Bad guys. Elves might have all alignments, but the ones the PCs deal with are CG. Good guys.

If you want to extend what the PCs encounter to every instance of a race, then sure, but then you're the one removing free will.

See above.

The problem with that Max is that you set up a situation where the truth doesn't matter.

Let us say that the only hobgoblins you encounter are evil. All of them. You will never once see a non-evil Hobgoblin.... then effectively, there are no non-evil hobgoblins. If the people in the local tavern are talking about Hobgoblins, then they are evil. If a hobgoblin is spotted on the road, they are evil.

Which, when you stop and think about it, would be like going to World War Two and saying that the only Germans you are going to find are evil. And the only British you will encounter are Good. We know that isn't true. And DnD is open ended enough about exploration, that it would seem weird to have an entire culture and gorup of people that no one ever talks about, sees or references, but that everyone knows exists somewhere over there.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Then we're done on this topic.

I see. You didn't want me to reread to make sure I didn't misunderstand. You wanted me to reread until I agreed with you.

And I bet you didn't even read the rest of my post either.

 

[Maxperson]

Heh, I feel intruded upon.

A list of gods belongs in a setting. Not in a Players Handbook. It can also be in the DMs Guide as an example within worldbuilding tools.

The Players Handbook can give different examples. "In Dark Sun, the prominent cosmic forces are the elements, Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and the planet Athas as a lifegiving whole. In Forgotten Realms, the prominent cosmic forces are gods inhabiting domains in the Astral Plane, each having a portfolio of different cosmic forces. In Eberron, cosmic forces vary by culture, each of which manifests miraculous power, despite conflictive points of view."

But that is it. Describe. Dont prescribe.

Avoid strong-arming any particular setting.

They did. No setting is strong-armed in the PHB. There are only mentions that are described and not prescribed.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No idea. I'm not aware of any specific types for those races.

I agree. That doesn't mean that some don't have types or that those types are bad.

But isn't everyone upset that you can no longer play against type? That was the discussion you were having with @Bill Zebub , wasn't it? That you could no longer play against type for a dwarf or an elf. And yet, here, we find out that there were multiple races in the game that never even had a type to play against. If it was never a problem that humans, genasi, aasimar, shifters and others all didn't have a type to play against... why is it bad that it is now "harder" in some way to play against type for an elf or a dwarf?

I mean, dwarven rogues still aren't going to be what everyone thinks of first, so they are still going to be unusual. So, what's the problem?

 

[Maxperson]

The problem with that Max is that you set up a situation where the truth doesn't matter.

Not so. I've set up a situation where the truth matters for those groups that want to engage it. If your group wants to find and engage good hobgoblins, go out there and meet them.

I'm just not forcing complex real world angst on the players who are there to escape that sort of stuff.

Let us say that the only hobgoblins you encounter are evil. All of them. You will never once see a non-evil Hobgoblin.... then effectively, there are no non-evil hobgoblins. If the people in the local tavern are talking about Hobgoblins, then they are evil. If a hobgoblin is spotted on the road, they are evil.

No. They exist and are encounterable if that's the kind of game you want to play.

Which, when you stop and think about it, would be like going to World War Two and saying that the only Germans you are going to find are evil. And the only British you will encounter are Good.

Real life has no place in this discussion. Nothing I'm saying is making any attempt to mirror reality. That's like the point and everything! We don't want to have reality in the game.

 

[Yaarel]

If this is the case, then you definitely should not be playing D&D. I mean, if the core assumption of the game you are discussing is racist in your view, then why even spend time on a forum that discusses these ideals you abhor? Why not write your own game or find one that doesn't peddle in these hurtful ideas? Why spend time on it when you can promote change through your ideas or pocketbook? Because if it is embedded, then the only thing to do is tear the house down.

Some of D&D perpetuates reallife racist memes. But not all of it.

It is possible, maybe even easy, to doublecheck the narratives and mechanics that seem concerning.