D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Yaarel]

This isn't necessarily directed at you; you're comment simply brought thoughts to mind.

In a game where Drow are a subset of Elf...
Drow currently have mechanical features, cultural features, and physical features as categories of features which mark them as being different from the standard Elf.

So, in a game where Drow are a subset of Elf...
This thread (and others) advocate for removing the differentiating mechanical features.
Upcoming books advocate for removing the differentiating cultural features.
There exists advocacy (some of which I understand and support) for widening the range of physical features for the category of Elf (to include features which are traditionally associated with the subcategory of Drow).

What remains as the defining features for saying that Drow -as a subcategory of Elf- exists?

Personally, if the only thing remaining to identify "Drow" is skin tone, I think that ends up being more racist and worse than currently identified issues. "Drow" almost becomes a racial slur at that point.

Note, there is no such thing as a "standard elf". Every subrace − high (high, gray, sun, moon), wood (wood, grugach, wild), drow (uda, aeven, loren), eladrin (fey, archfey tulani, noviere, etcetera), shadar-kai, aquatic, zendikar (tajuru, joraga, mul-daya), etcetera − is equally an elf. The high elf is one of very many subraces.

There are two ways to organize this unending proliferation of forms of this magical being: splitters and lumpers.

In the past, the D&D traditions were splitting, turning each and every ability score improvement into a separate, highly specialized, subrace marked by superficial traits like skin color and height and weapon choice.

Now, I am leaning strongly into lumping. Any elf character can choose to exhibit any of these traits. Pick any ability score improvements, pick any elf feat, pick any cantrip, pick any skin color, pick any height, and pick any proficiency.

A particular setting will probably have regional communities, each with an assemblage of typical builds. But the individuals within a community can do whatever they want.



What makes a drow a "drow" (now "uda"), is Lolth. It is a specific faction headed by a specific leader, who succeeded in gaining hegemony in certain cities. That is all. Also now, the loyalists of this faction are marked by a tattoo-like facial web. So, the skin colors of the other citizens of these cities are nonindicative of this faction.

 

[Yaarel]

Fair enough. I get that you see it that way.

That was why I came up with a solution: let players choose their attributes. Add it to the roll, point buy or standard array options. If you do, you can dismiss Tasha's and let individual tables decide on how best to play. Want those 20 strength halflings - use the choose option. Want random fate - choose roll. Want balance - choose standard array. Want the game of manipulating dials - choose point buy.

I agree in principle, but it is difficult in practice.

If every race option gave +2 to one score and +1 to an other score, then it would be easy to remove them from the race chapter, and include them as part of the ability generation chapter.

But the mountain dwarf has +2 and +2. The human has all +1s or three +1s. And so on. To take away the score improvements from the mountain dwarf would need to give it a half feat in exchange, and so on for the idiosyncrasies of each of the unusual race options. Every race would need to have its score improvements standardized before being able to remove them.

The goal is to let each player pick their own ability scores. That is why there are array and point-buy. But the race options entangle the situation.

 

[Argyle King]

Note, there is no such thing as a "standard elf". Every subrace − high (high, gray, sun, moon), wood (wood, grugach, wild), drow (uda, aeven, loren), eladrin (fey, archfey tulani, noviere, etcetera), shadar-kai, aquatic, zendikar (tajuru, joraga, mul-daya), etcetera − is equally an elf. The high elf is one of very many subraces.

There are two ways to organize this unending proliferation of forms of this magical being: splitters and lumpers.

In the past, the D&D traditions were splitting, turning each and every ability score improvement into a separate, highly specialized, subrace marked by superficial traits like skin color and height and weapon choice.

Now, I am leaning strongly into lumping. Any elf character can choose to exhibit any of these traits. Pick any ability score improvements, pick any elf feat, pick any cantrip, pick any skin color, pick any height, and pick any proficiency.

A particular setting will probably have regional communities, each with an assemblage of typical builds. But the individuals within a community can do whatever they want.



What makes a drow a "drow" (now "uda"), is Lolth. It is a specific faction headed by a specific leader, who succeeded in gaining hegemony in certain cities. That is all. Also now, the loyalists of this faction are marked by a tattoo-like facial web. So, the skin colors of the other citizens of these cities are nonindicative of this faction.

What marks something as a subrace of elf. Are there not features which identify the overall category of elf?

Hypothetically, would an orc cleric of Lolth be deemed a member of the Drow Faction? ...as a subrace of elf?

Is a character who is a different subrace of elf but chooses to worship Lolth considered drow?

I'm not opposed to getting rid of the traditional +2/+1 approach. I suppose I'm just a little lost on what the perceived identity of drow (as a category) is intended to be, going forward. My understanding of the explanation you've chosen is that "Drow" is a faction and not a race (or subrace) at all. I would be okay with that.

 

[Scott Christian]

I agree in principle, but it is difficult in practice.

If every race option gave +2 to one score and +1 to an other score, then it would be easy to remove them from the race chapter, and include them as part of the ability generation chapter.

But the mountain dwarf has +2 and +2. The human has all +1s or three +1s. And so on. To take away the score improvements from the mountain dwarf would need to give it a half feat in exchange, and so on for the idiosyncrasies of each of the unusual race options. Every race would need to have its score improvements standardized before being able to remove them.

The goal is to let each player pick their own ability scores. That is why there are array and point-buy. But the race options entangle the situation.

With my option, you don't need to negate the racial ability scores. You can choose your stats, so your elf, halfling, drow, etc, can have anything you want. In my option, there is no racial attribute bonuses. None needed if you get to place the number you want in the attribute. So literally, both sides can have their version.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

But the mountain dwarf has +2 and +2. The human has all +1s or three +1s. And so on. To take away the score improvements from the mountain dwarf would need to give it a half feat in exchange, and so on for the idiosyncrasies of each of the unusual race options. Every race would need to have its score improvements standardized before being able to remove them.

Sure, they should, but Tasha's didn't and that's bad. For example the reason why mountain dwarves got the unusual two +2s was that their strength bonus wouldn't really benefit classes that would benefit from their armour proficiency. But if you can just be caster, get that super useful armour proficiency and then move that +2 to your casting stat this makes the mountain dwarves simply super good for caster classes. You can eat your cake an have it too, while previously you couldn't. Now it is not a huge balance issue, but if the objective was to correct the issue of some races being better match for some classes, then it didn't work. It just changed which races are good for which classes and made races that simply get more stuff better.

Completely irrespective of my feelings of whether racial ASIs should be thing, I dislike the Tasha's solution because it is just a horrible ugly kludge. If you want get to rid of racial ASIs then you just need to redesign the character creation and races to work with that assumption.

 

[Yaarel]

What marks something as a subrace of elf. Are there not features which identify the overall category of elf?

Hypothetically, would an orc cleric of Lolth be deemed a member of the Drow Faction? ...as a subrace of elf?

Is a character who is a different subrace of elf but chooses to worship Lolth considered drow?

I'm not opposed to getting rid of the traditional +2/+1 approach. I suppose I'm just a little lost on what the perceived identity of drow (as a category) is intended to be, going forward. My understanding of the explanation you've chosen is that "Drow" is a faction and not a race (or subrace) at all. I would be okay with that.

A consequence of my extreme lumping, means, the elf has NO subraces. There is only the elf race. Any elf can be whatever they want.

What helps define the character concept of an elf is the choice of an elf race feat. These feats can include features like Bless, Misty Step, Detect Magic at-will, Invisibility, Darkness, Mage Armor that can appear like silky elven chain, Elven Accuracy, aura of sunlight, magic resistance, some kind of flight that is balanced at level 1 and improves while leveling, waterbreathing, alternate beast form, expertise for a choice of skill or tool, and so much more. There are so many tropes for an elf concept to explore.

Probably make darkvision a cantrip, and give a choice of any cantrip. Add an Elfsword cantrip that uses the casting ability for a longsword. Add an Elfshot cantrip to shoot arrows that deal psychic damage and paralysis instead of death. Pick a cantrip.

In practice, the elven communities in different regions will evolve cultures that tend toward certain feats. For example, perhaps the Lolth faction might require its members to pick Uda Magic with its Faerie Lights cantrip and Darkness spells. But other drow can pick whatever magical feat they want.

 

[Argyle King]

A consequence of my extreme lumping, means, the elf has NO subraces. There is only the elf race. Any elf can be whatever they want.

What helps define the character concept of an elf is the choice of an elf race feat. These feats can include features like Bless, Misty Step, Detect Magic at-will, Invisibility, Darkness, Mage Armor that can appear like silky elven chain, Elven Accuracy, some kind of flight that is balanced at level 1 and improves while leveling, waterbreathing, alternate beast form, expertise for a choice of skill or tool, and so much more. There are so many tropes for an elf concept to explore.

Probably make darkvision a cantrip, and give a choice of any cantrip. Add an Elfsword cantrip that uses the casting ability for a longsword. Add an Elfshot cantrip to shoot arrows that deal psychic damage and paralysis instead of death. Pick a cantrip.

In practice, the elven communities in different regions will evolve cultures that tend toward certain feats. For example, perhaps the Lolth faction might require its members to pick Uda Magic with its Faerie Lights cantrip and Darkness spells. But other drow can pick whatever magical feat they want.

Do you add a bonus feat choice for choosing a racial feat?

 

[Umbran]

Yes. I'm aware that people often imagine real life connections that don't exist.

With respect, that sounds like the position of someone who doesn't have to live with it much.

Some folks live under the shadow of racism every single day of their lives. If they see that shadow echoed in the game structures, maybe the people who don't live under the same shadow shouldn't get to say that connection does not exist.

Note: "racist" does not mean "intentional display of bigotry".

 

[Yaarel]

Sure, they should, but Tasha's didn't and that's bad. For example the reason why mountain dwarves got the unusual two +2s was that their strength bonus wouldn't really benefit classes that would benefit from their armour proficiency.

When asked about it, Crawford said that the case of the mountain dwarf swapping abilities and proficiencies had negligible impact on gaming balance. There is no problem.

If you want get to rid of racial ASIs then you just need to redesign the character creation and races to work with that assumption.

The UAs suggest new races will be more elegantly designed. Perhaps old 5e races can update.

I am satisfied with swapping when necessary for character concept.

As you know, in Norse cultures, the dvergar are especially magical and skillful, and makers of the best (most destructive) magic items.

I am delighted to use the mountain dwarf for an effective and mythologically accurate dwarf mage! I will make the character the same size as humans.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

When asked about it, Crawford said that case of the mountain dwarf swapping abilities and proficiencies had negligible impact on gaming balance. There is no problem.

Of course he will say that! He's not gonna say that he designed a rule that causes terrible balance issues even if it was true, would he?

The simple fact is that under Tasha's system some races get a lot more useful stuff than others. If that's not imbalance I don't know what is!

The UAs suggest new races will be more elegantly designed. Perhaps old 5e races can update.

They should have done that when they introduced this system. Not it is an awkward incomplete kludge.

I am satisfied with swapping when necessary for character concept.

As you know, in Norse cultures, the dvergar are especially magical and skillful, and makers of the best (most destructive) magic items.

I am delighted to use the mountain dwarf for an effective and mythologically accurate dwarf mage!

I have really no issue with dwarf mages, but I have an issue with them simply being better at it than other races as a result of a fix that was supposed to stop some races being better for certain classes!