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Ability Scores - Should they increase?

DonTadow

First Post
I'd go to the next level.

Why have ability scores at all?

Why does a 12=+1

Why not just have Int=1 or or Dex=2. Where is the advantage of having to do the small bit of extra math?

What's the difference between a character with Int 12 or Int 13?

I say get rid of ability scores and go straight to ability modifiers. :)

Some character sheets include this. It is certainly less confusing for new players (well what do i ever do with the actual score)
(..uh... nothing)
 

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Keldryn

Adventurer
Ability scores in general are much too important.

I would argue for moving to a BECMI-like arrangement of bonuses: 3 or less is -3, 4-6 -2, 7-9 -1, 10-11 no mod, 12-14 +1, 15-17 +2, 18 or more +3

Then, eliminate everything that adjusts ability scores after creation. (This may or may not include racial bonuses, but in any case these should be reduced to +/-1 at most. Also, I can readily see an exception for the most powerful wish-level magic as well - thus enhancing the wonder of achieving that level of magic.)

I completely agree with this, although I'd go with the actual numbers from BECMI:

  • 3: -3
  • 4-5: -2
  • 6-8: -1
  • 9-12: 0
  • 13-15: +1
  • 16-17: +2
  • 18: +3
What I like about these numbers is that the divisions between bonuses/penalties are a reasonable approximation of how the scores themselves are distributed on the bell curve representing 3d6. The 9 to 12 range covers 48.2% of rolls, so there is no bonus. Each + or - 1 bonus or penalty falls roughly one additional standard deviation away from the mean. It's an elegant system and while it isn't quite as easy to remember where the divisions are as in 3.x, it doesn't take that long to remember how it works. Rolling scores using 4d6, drop the lowest, obviously skews the bell curve to the right and it's not uncommon to see characters rolled using this method with at least a +1 modifier on every score.


This range also keeps modifiers to die rolls small. It's not that adding or subtracting two double-digit numbers is difficult -- after all it's elementary school math -- but it does take more time and attention than when at least one of the numbers is usually single-digit. The smaller modifiers also mean less variance between the top and bottom ends of the spectrum.

I don't mind having rare and powerful magic other than wishes that can permanently increase ability scores, such as the various magical books in AD&D.


That may well not be a popular move. It may even be attacked on grounds of 'realism'. But I'm pretty sure it's the right thing to do for the game, and especially for new players.

I find it realistic enough. The mental and physical challenges which adventurers face on a regular basis are beyond the comprehension of the average person. I don't find it at all unrealistic to assume that the typical adventuring PC is more or less in their prime physical and mental condition. This isn't necessarily to say that the PC has absolutely no room to improve, but that they are at that point where further improvement requires a level of dedication which would leave little room for other pursuits. Running around in heavy armor while carrying a backpack full of equipment and swinging a sword all day will certainly make you functionally strong, but you're not going to have the same physique as a dedicated bodybuilder. And it's arguable that the bodybuilder would have a greater functional strength for anything other than lifting heavy objects.

(For new players, it is vastly preferable to roll stats rather than grapple with the intricacies of point-buy at the outset. Unfortunately, getting the 'right' stats in both 3e and 4e is just too important to leave to chance. That's yet another barrier to new players entering the game, and that's not a good thing.)

Agreed, and in my experience most players like rolling for ability scores.

I don't really care much for point-buy in 3.x and later D&D, as it feeds right into the optimization problem.

I'd like to see ability scores go back to being largely for descriptive and adjudicative purposes, rather than essentially just a way of determining modifiers to die rolls. Keep the modifiers in the +1 to +3 range and scores capped at 18 for humans. Of course it is only with age and years of experience that I realize how ability scores were intended to be used in the first place.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Here's my thoughts:

Is this a real problem? Do we see folks actually playing with that much disparity in their defenses? Not just in one group, but across many of our groups? The fact that it can be done does not imply that it is often done.

The disparity in defenses is largely the player's own fault - if you optimize strongly for one function, you'll leave yourself weak in other areas. You really want to leave yourself that kind of Achilles' Heel? That's fine, but expect the GM to target it on occasion.

However, assume, for the moment, that they relax the "roles" aspect a little bit - if your character's role is a little less focused, there's less drive to excel in only one arena, and thus less drive to pump up only one stat. Give players a reason to consider more than one prime attribute, and the issue largely fixes itself.

In general, I like raising stats. While the question here is about driving one already high stat to inane levels, there's also the aspect of "character grows and improves to cover weak areas" that's also of value. This is a prime place where fluff of character personality development can be reflected in mechanics, and I'd not like to lose it.

Rather than a hard cap, I'd prefer to see a "diminishing returns" mechanic, as you often see in point-buy character generation. If your stat is low, improvement is easy. If your stat is high, raising it costs more.
 

darkwing

First Post
Get rid of ability scores. They're just a trap. They don't *do* anything except make you plan out your character for 20+ levels just so you can make sure you get good bonuses for the powers you want and meet the pre-reqs for the feats you want. They're also one of the largest sources of imbalance with respect to "chance to hit" and defensive bonuses. They also limit role play in the sense that every fighter must be a tough brute and every wizard an intellectual.
 
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jodyjohnson

Adventurer
I don't expect 5e to be the 'cow slaying' edition.

3-18 with 'options' to improve I think would be the base. (Level based or item based makes no difference to me).

I think I did have characters with effective stats around 23-25 in 1e. Hey, it was junior high. +7/+14 from a belt of Storm Giant Strength was a huge variant in a game that effectively spanned only 1st-9th.
 


MortonStromgal

First Post
I would like an increase every 5 levels (rather than the four levels of 3e)and the actual bonus to be every +4 rather than every +2 and then cap the bonus for PCs at 21.

3 = -2
4-7 = -1
8-11 = 0
12-16 = +1
17-20 = +2
21+ = +3
 

I'd go to the next level.

Why have ability scores at all?

Why does a 12=+1

Why not just have Int=1 or or Dex=2. Where is the advantage of having to do the small bit of extra math?

What's the difference between a character with Int 12 or Int 13?

I say get rid of ability scores and go straight to ability modifiers. :)
No. Strip that from D&D and 5e is doomed...
 

CleanCutRogue

First Post
I'd go to the next level.

Why have ability scores at all?

Why does a 12=+1

Why not just have Int=1 or or Dex=2. Where is the advantage of having to do the small bit of extra math?

What's the difference between a character with Int 12 or Int 13?

I say get rid of ability scores and go straight to ability modifiers. :)
I understand your line of thought and it intrigues me, but have to agree with others... if my STR score was +3 it wouldn't feel like D&D to me.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
A finished character's ability score should be as high and a hill giant's base strength.

Meaning a fighter that starts with 18 Strength and puts all his boosts to Strength while wearing expected Strength boosting items, should have the same Strength as a hill giant or ogre by the time he or she hits epic.

Whether the ability score increases by level or the character relies on magic, the ability scores should be such that by epic... a Strength based character should be able to wrestle giants and a Smart character can hold his own in a strategic game with a pit fiend.
 

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