D&D 5E About Bonus action attacks and shove.

[MYV]

I remember reading about this from a different thread.
That you could use the bonus action granted by feats or TWF to shove instead than to attack, since the shove "manouver" can be taken instead of an attack.

while this is not true: PHB pg 195
"Using the Attack action, you can make a special meleeattack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or
push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple
attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces
one of them."

it still opens up an intresting consideration:
the feat Shield Master first benefit "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can usea bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet
of you with your shield."

becomes quite redundant considering that what it really does is just extend the possibility to shove to the bonus action.
now, if you have a way to take a bonus action (TWF, polearm master, etc..) you can still shove and take the same number of attacks on your turn.
TWF is an intresting mechanic here, since you can consider a shield an improvised weapon and can attack with it with your offhand, provided you have a way to TWF with non-light weapons as per the feat effectively increasing your AC by 1 and still being able to shove and attack.

So, the conclusion here is:
Shield Master and the DUAL wielder Feats are effectively very similar.
what is odd is that, if you go for the Shield master route, you can shove and make more powerfull attacks with you regular attack action, while with the dual wielder feat, you get higher AC but lose dmg output since you'll have to use one of your attack action attacks to shove.
Shield master for offence and dual wielder for defence?

Considerations?
Am i missing something in the rules and all this is not possible?

Thanks in advance

 

[jrowland]

Am i missing something in the rules and all this is not possible?

Thanks in advance

I think you have the gist. Your options are:

TWF
1) Attack Action Shove, Bonus Action Weapon Attack
2) Attack Action Weapon Attack, Bonus Action Improvised Shield Attack (if you can attack with non-light)

Shield Master
1) Attack Action Weapon Attack, Bonus Action Shove
2) Attack Action Shove, Bonus Action Shove

I think those are meaningful choices and not all that similar. The similarity is being able to attack and bonus action *something* that is the rules not the feats doing that. The feats give options for more attacks or more shoving and they deliver exactly that.

 

[MYV]

I agree with what you are saying, but what i meant is that i find odd that, going as a sword and board warrior, you have defensive benefits with dual wielder and offensive benefits with shield master.

 

[JValeur]

I don't think you're exactly right. PHB, page 195:

"Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

So, if you are using TWF, you only get your off-hand attack, if you use your attack action to actually make an attack with a light weapon (or any weapon, if you have the Dual Wielder feat). You don't get your off-hand attack, if you use your attack action to shove only. It's only if you have multiple attacks and can replace one of them with a shove, while still making an additional attack, that you would be able to make an off-hand attack as well. So level 5+ for Valor Bards, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers and Bladelocks.

 

[jrowland]

I agree with what you are saying, but what i meant is that i find odd that, going as a sword and board warrior, you have defensive benefits with dual wielder and offensive benefits with shield master.

I suppose you're considering TWF as Offensive and Shield Master as Defensive. That's not true. TWF is mixed (a little defense with bonus AC and a little offense - bigger weapons) and shield master is mixed (a little defense with bonuses to saves, and little offense with a bonus shove).

I am not so sure using Sword and Board and comparing TWF to Shield master equates to +1 AC >> Save Benefits therefore TWF is more defensive for sword and board. Those save bonuses are pretty damn good! And by the same token improvised weapon shield attack << Bonus Action Shove and therefore Shield Master is more offensive. That's too situational to really judge.

 

[jrowland]

I don't think you're exactly right. PHB, page 195:

"Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

So, if you are using TWF, you only get your off-hand attack, if you use your attack action to actually make an attack with a light weapon (or any weapon, if you have the Dual Wielder feat). You don't get your off-hand attack, if you use your attack action to shove only. It's only if you have multiple attacks and can replace one of them with a shove, while still making an additional attack, that you would be able to make an off-hand attack as well. So level 5+ for Valor Bards, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers and Bladelocks.

Yeah, I think that's a DM call. The Shove specifically says its a special melee attack. i.e. it is an attack.

 

[UnadvisedGoose445]

Shield Master also provides defensive benefits, by allowing an admittedly niche bonus to Dex saving throws that ONLY target you, but also providing the opportunity to completely block any Dex saving throws that you succeed on. Manage to save against that dragon's breath? Congrats, at the cost of a reaction that's 0 damage!

 

[Ovinomancer]

I remember reading about this from a different thread.
That you could use the bonus action granted by feats or TWF to shove instead than to attack, since the shove "manouver" can be taken instead of an attack.

while this is not true: PHB pg 195
"Using the Attack action, you can make a special meleeattack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or
push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple
attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces
one of them."

it still opens up an intresting consideration:
the feat Shield Master first benefit "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can usea bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet
of you with your shield."

becomes quite redundant considering that what it really does is just extend the possibility to shove to the bonus action.
now, if you have a way to take a bonus action (TWF, polearm master, etc..) you can still shove and take the same number of attacks on your turn.
TWF is an intresting mechanic here, since you can consider a shield an improvised weapon and can attack with it with your offhand, provided you have a way to TWF with non-light weapons as per the feat effectively increasing your AC by 1 and still being able to shove and attack.

So, the conclusion here is:
Shield Master and the DUAL wielder Feats are effectively very similar.
what is odd is that, if you go for the Shield master route, you can shove and make more powerfull attacks with you regular attack action, while with the dual wielder feat, you get higher AC but lose dmg output since you'll have to use one of your attack action attacks to shove.
Shield master for offence and dual wielder for defence?

Considerations?
Am i missing something in the rules and all this is not possible?

Thanks in advance

Using shield master, you can't use your bonus action to shove and then attack, because you're only granted the bonus action after you take an attack action. Same with TWF and polearm master, iirc. So you can't bonus action shove, attack action attack with advantage, you can only shove after you attack.

 

[Mistwell]

Using shield master, you can't use your bonus action to shove and then attack, because you're only granted the bonus action after you take an attack action. Same with TWF and polearm master, iirc. So you can't bonus action shove, attack action attack with advantage, you can only shove after you attack.

According to Crawford, you can take the bonus action before or after the triggering action, though you must take the action and can't change your mind.

 

[MYV]

while i agree that shield master ofc also offers defensive benefits, we must all admit that the main purpose of the feat is the shove part; and that benefit specifically is used mostly for offensive reasons. Making it effectively a mosly offensive feat.
moreover while the dex bonus and "evasion" effect are nice, the +1 AC the dual wielder feat gives, arguably prevents more dmg over a campaign or lifetime of a character since it applies to the great majority of dmg suffering situations.

while the dual wielder feat, that probably was designed as an offensive feat with a little defensive benefit to compensate, becomes effectively a good defensive feat with a shield as an improvised weapon.

so while you are wielding a sword and board you have two feats as options.
dual wielder that gives you +1 AC and a bonus attack with an improvised weapon. with your regular attack(s) you can do whatever you want.
shield master gives you the dex saving throw benefits (IMO inferior to +1AC, but debatable) but lets you shove as a bonus action, freeing your regular attack(s)

so it comes up to +1AC vs dex saving throw benefits or advantage on attacks vs an improvised weapon attack