Absolute Good and Absolute Evil

[Anubis]

Okay, maybe I've been playing too much Disgaea lately, but the game has got me thinking about a few things, mainly the concepts of absolute good and absolute evil.

We all know there are a lot of creatures in the books that are "always" a particular alignment. Some of these don't make any sense (fantasy-wise) to begin with (i.e. undead are always evil), but others so actually make sense even though the realistic legitimacy might be in question (i.e. angels, demons, and devils). Since I'm pretty certain most DMs out there have (as I have) already made house rules rules about most monsters regarding them "always" being a certain alignment, I'm here to discuss the latter group, the aligned outsiders.

For those who haven't played Disgaea, this angel named Flonne befriends a demon prince named Laharl, determined to prove that demons can love and that Seraph Lamington was right that demons aren't absolute evil just as angels aren't absolute good (Archangel Vulcanus proves this absolutely with his dastardly deeds throughout the game). So that brings me here.

If we make the realistically logical assumption that there are no such thing as absolutes (I can't think of even one in real life, and I'm pretty sure I haven't overlooked anything), then that calls into question forcing a certain alignment even on the aligned outsiders. If we also assume that every intelligent creature in existence can forge his or her own destiny, then that pokes a gaping hole in the absolute alignments of even angels, devils, and demons. In fact, if we look at common mythology, these absolutes don't exist. For instance, several mythologies portray the Archangel Gabriel as selfish and evil (most notably the movie Constantine), and some portray Satan/Lucifer as something a bit more complex than absolute evil.

I will now interject the only rule I would like to adhere to in this discussion: please do not interject real life religion into this, period; doing so would only create conflict. That said, I have come to my main point.

Is there any realistic, technical, or other such reason why angels can't be evil, devils and demons can't be good, or any other such odd alignment? I know it would be extremely rare, but is there any reason not to allow this? Oh, and I'm not looking for arbitrary answers like "demons that turn good become angels and vice versa", since that is arbitrary and illogical anyway. The main thing is, is there any reason why actual angels can't be evil and actual devils and demons can't be good?

 

[Li Shenron]

I would like to write you my opinion, but you are not really allowing me to. You must be absolute evil

 

[JBowtie]

This is something that has been considered frequently in literature; some good examples off the top of my head -

Drizzt in the Forgotten Realms books is from an otherwise unremittingly evil race.
Good Omens, by Neil Gaiman, has characters from both sides who defy the usual classification.
The Incarnations of Immortality series by Piers Anthony has a rather interesting take on the incarnations of good and evil.
And of course we have the immortal works of Milton to give us a good (or at least, heroic) prince of evil.

 

[JBowtie]

Oh, and in answer to your question; theology aside, of course not. You're talking about fictional characters in a fictional world adhering to a fictional and artificial definition of morality. It's, um, fiction. So you can rewrite it. Generally speaking, characters cast against type make for better drama anyway.

 

[Thia Halmades]

"The only absolute is that there are no absolutes." -- Me, although I'm certain I heard it elsewhere. The statement is self-defeating, obviously. It turns into a logic loop, but you've already keyed on the gist.

So long as you remember that fiction has to make sense, yes, you can do whatever you like. JBowtie points out quite simply: it's your fiction, go nuts. As a DM, you're a writer. If your story revolves around an Evil Angel, then... well, there you go. Much as Li Shenron said, there ain't much I can reasonably add on the personal front without getting "real" religion involved, but for more chewy material:

- "Curse you and your inevitable betrayal." You can build whole plotlines around the possibility that a new Outsider ally/enemy is really on the other side (whether for or against the PCs). For inspiration tune into TNT until Law & Order comes on (although by rights, it's probably on somewhere now). Creating the Outsider character, then the characters which must exist in that Outsider's background to force them into this position, will give you enough material for a campaign, simply because the material itself will force new questions during the creation period. Remember that the character automatically requires depth; they need a history, an objective, and a motivation for completing that objective.

- This is really important. Your players have a certain expectation of how reality MUST work; for them, Demons are always evil and that's important. It's EXTREMELY important, actually, because in the D&D cosmology, being from that plane (say, Tartarus or Hades, or Celestia for all it matters) means that you are the physical incarnation of the balacing idealogy that keeps the multiverse together. In D&D, all Angels are Good by a planar default; Celestia is an idea made manifest, as much as Hell is (for our gaming purposes, but you can see where the conversation gets sketchy because we're drawing from real-world religion to create our mythology. Art imitates life.)

If you're going to break that rule, then you must justify it. For your sake, but more for your players' sake, because they'll eventually ask (and if the adventure is well written, you should be pulling them towards this question anyway): Why are these Outsiders different from others of their kind? Why is this Angel really more of a Demon, and why is this Demon on our side?

Using Good Omens as our example, we know two things right off the bat: First, Crowley was never really "evil" in the traditional sense, he was just hanging out with the wrong crowd. Millenia of working for Hell has certainly made him do evil things, but that's as much to maintain the balance between Good & Evil, thusly allowing people to make their own decision unimpeded (Free Will) as it is about furthering an agenda. You could say he's a professionally evil slacker. Aziraphale is much more involved in being "Good," but at the end of the day, he has more in common with Crowley than he'd like. In short: They don't want the world to end because they like people.

*Shrug* I never said it had to be a GREAT reason, just a reason. And, if your Good Outsider is going to flip sides, then they need a back story. Revenge is usually a good motivator (see: Dogma, by Kevin Smith) as is plain old angst (see: Prophecy, where again, Gabriel is cast as evil and played by Christopher Walken).

Insofar as Milton: He gives us a humanized version of Lucifer, but he's still Evil. His evil is made clear to us because its brought out of the realm of the abstract and into a world we can understand. He's still Evil, with a capital E. This is Satan we're talking about, written in a time period where the Church was immensely more powerful than it is now. But, my swift review aside, it's a phenomenal example of the contruction of a villain and the road he takes. Also, if you're really curious, Dante's Inferno is the guidebook to writing about the Planes of Hell, so you may want to pick up the Divine Comedy and leaf through it as well.

The story of Satan's fall is one of pride; he starts off as evil because he's already committed the sin of Hubris. That's what makes him interesting as a character throughout "Paradise Lost."

I realize that a lot of this is an extremely condensed class of storytelling 101, but I hope it was of some help.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Outsiders are linked far more directly with powers that are absolutes, so they are far more rarely anything other than one alighnment. Now take an Inevitable and cast him into the realms of chaos for a thousand years, and he may very well change.

Hmmm, chaotic inevitable.... bye.

 

[Eloi]

For every Fallen angel, a redeemed Demon shall rise to meet it.

Please watch "The Iron Giant" to see a version of this in action.

 

[anton1066]

If you read milton and think satan is a good guy, you need to reread it.

 

[DreadPirateMurphy]

Well, Outsiders in the MM 3.5 are listed as being partially made up of their planes of origination. If you define the outer planes as being dedicated or even created based on alignment, then by definition you have outsiders who are STRONGLY predisposed to good or evil based on their very physical makeup.

Having said that, I have found in the real world that most perspectives on good and evil are based strongly on one's definition of group affiliation. To avoid that complexity, fantasy worlds tend to provide some embodiment of the hostile "other" to serve as an antagonist (e.g., Sauron in LotR, the Dark One in Wheel of Time, etc.). It is fairly simple to define a metaphysical being (deity, demon lord, etc.) that embodies evil, and then dictate behavior based on alliance or opposition to that being.

Another take is that individuals are not locked into a specific alignment, but the nature of supernatural beings is such that their characteristics change based upon their behavior and/or belief. A demon/devil is evil by definition, because their alignment manifests outwardly in their appearance and abilities.

Personally, I think the only "realistic" alignment is True Neutral...a mix of order and disorder, and of self-interest and altruism. Moderation tends to prove most effective in its flexibility.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Originally Posted by DreadPirateMurphy
Personally, I think the only "realistic" alignment is True Neutral...a mix of order and disorder, and of self-interest and altruism. Moderation tends to prove most effective in its flexibility.

*circles five 'Strongly Disagree'*

Not because I'm saying you don't have a point, but because I feel most people are actually Lawful Good, or Neutral Good.

Stop laughing, I'm totally serious.

Most people want two things: They want to be accepted specifically, and left alone in general. They know they can't be bums, they must have jobs or income. They know that hurting people to get their way is wrong, and while tempting, is generally to be avoided. I'm not talking about the easy, obvious examples everyone wants to give "What if so-and-so steals?" Then so-and-so stole; might have a good reason, might not. Doesn't automatically make them evil, anymore than giving to charity makes you good.

When I talk about being Lawful, I'm talking about fitting into society. When I talk about being good, I'm talking about helping others, not being a jerk in general, taking out the land lady's garbage. Recognizing and adhering to the behaviors that allow you to get along in society without going to jail. If you're going to be evil, it's trickier to keep up the facade, but doable. Most of the Desperate Housewives are either Good or Neutral; none of them is evil. Conniving? Yes. Evil? No. Misguided? Confused? Callow? Sure. But if they were evil, we couldn't like them at all. George? The pharmacist? He's evil.

Most folk want to help because they want to be accepted; Neutral behavior is, to me, a willingness to stand in the middle, shrug noncomitally, and sit down at the cross roads, contemplating your navel. It's a focus on being focused. That idea to me is anathema to how society actually works.

Sure, I know plenty of evil people - most of them are on the news, so they get more press than good people. I know, personally, way more good people. I can then infer that other people know, personally, more good people than evil people on average. I know plenty of people I don't like, which has nothing to do with them being good OR evil. That's society, and one interpretation.

Originally Posted by DreadPirateMurphy
Another take is that individuals are not locked into a specific alignment, but the nature of supernatural beings is such that their characteristics change based upon their behavior and/or belief. A demon/devil is evil by definition, because their alignment manifests outwardly in their appearance and abilities.

*circles one, Strongly Agree* One of the things I was saying earlier is that, in short, creatures from those planes are incarnate ideas. Assigning them a level of free will means they can change their ideas, and thusly change their form & status, exactly as DreadPirateMurphy says. This is very much in line with what I was saying, understanding that you have to document and validate the change.