Absolute Good and Absolute Evil

When I talk about being Lawful, I'm talking about fitting into society. When I talk about being good, I'm talking about helping others, not being a jerk in general, taking out the land lady's garbage.

Definition is important, and semantic disagreement is one of the reasons why alignment discussions so often degenerate into bickering.

I see law and chaos as order vs. disorder. Too much order leads to inflexibility, too little leads to inefficacy.

I see good and evil as altruism vs. self-interest within one's frame of reference. Too much of either ultimately leads to an inability to pass on your genes. Too much altruism burns up your resources for the sake of others, while too much self-interest destroys your chances to take advantage of cooperation. If that seems too stark, then you can look at it this way: mentally healthy people take care of both themselves and others. Self-hate and social disfunction are both seriously destructive in different ways.

Neutrality becomes a balance, rather than just the "no opinion" checkbox, or void. That makes sense if you see alignments as a continuum rather than as a binary opposition on two axes.

Having said all that, I think both George and Bree's son Andrew are evil. Zack is chaotic neutral. Susan is chaotic chaotic, if such a thing exists. :)
 

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Andrew isn't evil - he IS Chaotic, and he is a total punk, but he isn't evil. He's a teenager with sexual issues, I don't know how evil that is.

George is evil. And he creeps me out, which is saying something for a TV character. Susan is Chaotic Good, with astonishingly bad luck. She's the only actual heroine in the series. Haven't figured out the new neighbor yet, but having her husband bust out of the basement was pretty entertaining.

I do see alignments in the sense of a continuum, but more appropriately I see it as a series of lenses and views, which can be highly personalized. Again, I yield what you're saying is valid, but my interpretation (without getting snarky) is simply that most people will a) follow the law for the sake of fitting in and b) do the right thing for the same reason, or self gratification. So I suppose I'm arguing that it's more of a guideline than a defined position.

Or, as I refer to it in the article I wrote: A snapshot of a personality. It isn't a hard definition, but a foundation from which we can look through this person's eyes and see the world a bit how they do, knowing that perception directly affects how they deal with reality.
 

Alignment is fairly complex, and there are different ways of doing it. A while back I drafted some "alignment guidelines." Uller made a pretty good point at the time:

Uller said:
But of course no character conforms specifically to all the values within any one alignment. If you want to use these in a game, you should pick maybe 5 or 10 of them that apply to your character. Prioritize them and THEN pick the alignment that best applies.

For instance...I believe that an individual is responsible for his own actions and the consequences there of. That would make me kind of chaotic. Then again, I also believe in tradition and the rule of legitimate authority...which would make me kind of lawful...

Real people don't fit into 9 nice neat categories...there are shades of gray and even cross-overs that don't necessarily make sense. The only excpetions are beings who have taken sides in the struggle between Good and Evil and/or Law and Chaos. These creatures would be more likely to strictly adhere to an alignment for the sake of that alignment.

In other words...for most characters, behavior and beleif systems come first and alignment is chosen based on that.

The alignment guidelines are as follows:

[sblock=LAWFUL GOOD]
1. Serve the greater good. Venerate tradition, respect authority, but use your own judgment as well.

2. Your integrity is worth more than reputation, possessions, or life itself. Die rather than compromise your beliefs.

3. The ends do not justify the means: Do not use evil means to achieve a worthy purpose. Do not cooperate in evil actions. Your silence or negligence may be the cooperation needed for evil to flourish.

4. Put yourself at a disadvantage rather than risk performing an evil act. Do not act rashly, but only after due consideration.

5. Choose your companions wisely. You are entrusting them with your honor.

6. Be cautious about giving your word; ensure that it cannot be twisted to evil ends. When you give your word, keep it.

7. If good and evil would both result from an action, the action is permitted only if the evil is genuinely an undesired side effect (not a goal or a means), and is proportionate to the good achieved. Consider carefully what evil might result from an apparently good action, and if there is not a better way.

8. The needy have a claim on you to act on their behalf. The weak have a claim on your strength. Those who are subject to just punishment have a valid claim only if the punishment is excessive.

9. Violence is justified only in self-defense, and as a last resort. The defense of those who cannot defend themselves also counts as self-defense.

10. Use the minimum amount of violence necessary to defend yourself. With opponents that are wholly corrupt, destruction may be the minimum amount of violence required. Offer terms to defeated enemies who are not wholly evil. Accept their surrender and consider them under your protection. Let them go free rather than let them come to harm.[/sblock]

[sblock=NEUTRAL GOOD]

1. Do unto others what you would have them do unto you. If anything, put the happiness of others a little ahead of your own.

2. Go the extra mile; do more than you are required to do, and do so cheerfully. Keep alert for the chance to do a good deed.

3. Enjoy life, and help others do the same. Encourage good behavior by setting a good example and praising others.

4. Little things count. Maintain high standards even for small and apparently trivial things. Small courtesies and acts of consideration add up.

5. Rules ensure the stability and harmony of a community, and enable individual members to flourish. Rules which do not fulfill both these purposes are flawed. Go beyond the rules to follow higher ones.

6. There is a little good even in the darkest heart. Never give up on a creature’s redemption.

7. Justice must be tempered with mercy. The integration of the offender into society is the goal of punishment, not the offender’s suffering.

8. Be sure that you are face to face with evil before resorting to force. In case of doubt, you must be certain that you are defending what is right and good.

9. Remember that doing harm to others, even if it is necessary, harms you. Say you are sorry, and try to make up for harm you may have done; pray for the dead, help survivors, do penance.

10. Be generous to those in need. Regard any surplus you may have as belonging to them. [/sblock]

[sblock=CHAOTIC GOOD]

1. Do what you will, if it harms none.

2. Do not indulge in stereotyping; judge individuals as individuals. Many a scoundrel wears a crown.

3. Force may be justified to prevent or remedy injustice. The existence of injustice is authorization enough for you to act.

4. Make personal commitments and follow them. Whether anyone knows about them or appreciates them is irrelevant.

5. You are responsible for your own decisions. If you are convinced that a group decision is wrong, refuse to go along with it.

6. Others are responsible for their decisions. If they make bad ones, the consequences are on their own heads.

7. Do not swear oaths. “Yes” or “No” is sufficient to indicate your agreement.

8. Listen to the viewpoints of others. No-one sees the world in quite the same way, and you may find fresh insights even from someone you thought you knew well.

9. When faced with a threat, it is usually best to leave peacefully or negotiate; but do not hesitate to fight if that is appropriate.

10. Always give an enemy a chance to prove himself a friend; also give a friend the freedom to move on. [/sblock]

[sblock=LAWFUL NEUTRAL]

1. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. There should be no hesitation to sacrifice one or more for the sake of the group. It is irrelevant if you are among the ones sacrificed.

2. Traditional ways are best. If there were a better way, it would have been done that way in the first place.

3. Always follow orders from your superiors. Don’t give a subordinate an order that you would not yourself follow.

4. There is strength (and safety) in numbers. Conform to the group. Your effectiveness is multiplied by being joined with like minded companions; but a group divided against itself is its own worst enemy.

5. When giving instructions, check the manual first; there is usually a traditional solution to any problem. If a traditional solution is not available, seek instructions from a superior. If a superior is not available, seek the consensus of the group. If consensus would be too slow, then follow the advice of someone with expertise in the area. Invent your own path only as a last resort.

6. All things, events and situations are orderly. If it sometimes seems otherwise, it is because some kinds of order are too complex for your mind to perceive. If you are in charge, your first task is simplify and regulate until you achieve full understanding and control. There is no acceptable amount of uncertainty or lack of control; no detail is too small to understand and to regulate.

7. Slow and steady wins the race. Careful preparation and methodical execution is the only sure way to success.

8. If it’s not your job, don’t do it. The order of a group is disrupted by individuals doing what is not assigned to them.

9. Truthfulness, helpfulness and cooperation are default qualities to be displayed with those who serve beside you. Certain circumstances may change these defaults; they are not to be presumed to be active when dealing with uncouth strangers.

10. The discovery and creation of order is your greatest responsibility. Fame, fortune and success are mere trifles in comparison with self-discipline, duty and honor.[/sblock]

[sblock=TRUE NEUTRAL]

1. Don’t do to others what you would not want them to do to you.

2. Enjoy life in moderation, but do not get too attached to what you love. Life is too uncertain to risk strong attachments.

3. Tradition is not always right, but should be departed from only with caution and in times of great need. Keep an open mind about change, but not so open that your brains fall out.

4. Be generous when times are good; you’ll appreciate the generosity of others when times are bad. Go into debt reluctantly, and pay your debts as soon as you can. Avoid having others obligated to you. Be self-reliant, and encourage self-reliance in others.

5. Repay kindness with kindness. Overlook the occasional fault in others, but don’t let yourself get stepped on. Defend yourself if attacked, and insist that criminals be punished in proportion to their crimes.

6. Look out primarily for your family, friends and community. If it costs relatively little to help a stranger in need, do so, but don’t cause hardship for you and yours. It rarely hurts to smile and say hello.

7. The community exists so that the individual can flourish. Individuals have an obligation to support and protect their community; this may involve the sacrifice of certain rights and freedoms. The community has a corresponding obligation to let individuals exercise their own rights and freedoms within reasonable limits.

8. The exercise of an individual’s rights and freedoms are limited to the extent that they do not infringe on the rights and freedoms of others. They are also limited by the customs and norms of the local community.

9. Everything has a place and a time. Know your place, and be prudent about when and if to act. When in doubt, it is usually better not to get involved.

10. Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Don’t rock the boat. Unless you have a very good reason, don’t meddle in the affairs of those who are mightier than you. Don’t try to change the world; tend to your own affairs and the world will unfold as it should.[/sblock]

[sblock=CHAOTIC NEUTRAL]
1. Embrace your freedom. You are not bound by external laws or forces, nor are you compelled to follow your instinctive impulses. Neither does your past experience condition you; you have complete freedom of choice in any given situation.

2. Don’t be afraid to accept commitments for as long as is necessary. If you or the situation changes, rethink the commitment, and move on when it seems appropriate.

3. Make plans carefully. Don’t consider only the likely outcomes; consider what you would do if something improbable happened. And make sure that your plans have lots of flexibility, so you can change them on the fly.

4. Seek novelty. New experiences, new knowledge, new skills, new friends; the world is full of wonderful things to discover. Don’t be afraid to take chances or make mistakes.

5. Don’t close your mind to new things; don’t knock it until you try it, and try anything once.

6. Encourage others to grow into unique, free individuals. Don’t constrain them with your expectations. Appreciate their quirks and foibles; even unpleasant or ugly things can have their own weird charm.

7. Consider enlivening a situation by inserting an element of randomness. To do this you might have to do something “illegal” or “socially unacceptable,” but it could be fun anyway.

8. A rolling stone gathers no moss. To live is to change a little every day.

9. Don’t judge others. Everyone is right according to their own perspective, and who are you to say they are wrong?

10. There is no good reason for a creature’s freedom to be limited. Liberate the captive and set prisoners free if you have the chance to do so without undue risk to yourself. [/sblock]

[sblock=LAWFUL EVIL]

1. The self is the agent of the will. Discipline and master the self as you would master a deadly weapon or a precision tool. Discipline perfects the self and strengthens the will; it hardens the strong and eliminates the weak.

2. Obey your superiors. The meshing of your will with theirs produces something greater than the sum of the parts. But be watchful for weakness or inconsistency in your superiors- do not let your will be yoked to one that is unworthy of yours, and do not obey someone weaker than yourself.

3. Love your associates as yourself. Strengthen them as you would strengthen and discipline your own body. In their submission to the will is their perfection, and the further strengthening of the will. Purge weakness as ruthlessly and dispassionately as you would purge it in yourself.

4. Beware sentimentality; affection and animosity alike are distractions to the completion of your duties, and weaknesses to be exploited by your enemies. Ruthless constancy of purpose are the sole means of overcoming obstacles.

5. Ensure that your subordinates retain their focus. Use fear and pain to discourage disobedience and incompetence- reward faithful service with power and responsibility. Recruit able individuals, and prune your organization of those who have proven unsatisfactory.

6. Your complete knowledge and control of your environment and subordinates is key to your success. But ensure that the function of your organization is visible only to you and your superiors- your command of what is in your purvey is what is important, not that your organization be so rigid or predictable that it is vulnerable to the ambition of others.

7. Be truthful and reliable, and keep promises and commitments scrupulously. Your thoughts, words and actions must always be in harmony with reality and with your own history. You are not, however, responsible for any misunderstanding your words or actions; if someone is misled or comes to harm because of that person’s mistake, the fault is entirely theirs.

8. Be courteous and polite; it is a measure of your self control. Give praise where it is due, and remember that imitation is the sincerest form of praise; strength and cunning is no less real for being modeled on the strength and cunning of another.

9. Appear sensitive to the needs and wants of others. If they are weaker, then knowing their weaknesses increases your own control over them, and the appearance of gentleness may disarm the unperceptive. If they are stronger, then your own will and ambition may be advanced by being harnessed to theirs.

10. Be patient; time unravels the schemes of the inconstant. Be strategically and tactically flexible; rigidity is not strength, and a disciplined mind and organization are responsive to changing situations.[/sblock]

[sblock=NEUTRAL EVIL]

1. The first rule is to look out for number one. Anyone who doesn’t see this is a fool, and deserves to be taken advantage of. Others act on this rule, but pretend to be acting for a “higher cause”. Keep an eye on them; they probably lie about other things too. Finally, some people put their own interests first and are honest about it. You can respect such people, and should think twice about messing with them.

2. Playing by the rules is the surest way to fail. If the system is stacked against you, the only sensible thing is to try to even the odds.

3. Achieving your goals will also require sacrifice and hard work. No one will appreciate that you gave up family and friends to achieve your goals, but that’s OK; your progress to your goal makes it all worthwhile.

4. Deception is a necessary tactic for survival. Many will not cooperate with you if they know what your goals are. Conceal your goals and methods and you will have an easier time of things.

5. Earn a good reputation. Make people see that it is in their best interests to stay on your good side, and that it is a bad idea to get you angry. Don’t overdo it on the “nice guy” bit; people will think you are weak and will try to walk all over you. But don’t overdo it on the death and destruction side either, or people won’t see any alternative to uniting against you. Just make it clear that your friends get along fine, and that your enemies are in for a world of hurt.

6. Study the “dark side” of human emotions. Fear motivates more people than hope, and hatred motivates more people than compassion. More people are walking the path of greed, ambition or revenge than you might think. As a student of human nature you will gain more insight if you recognize these basic facts. For example, people who are “doing good” are either acting in fear of someone or something more powerful than they are, or they are greedily seeking a reward for their services.

7. You can’t do everything yourself; a lot of work has to be delegated to properly motivated subordinates, or get done by people who are manipulated into doing something. Still, if something has to be done right, it will sometimes have to be done by you.

8. People generally don’t say what they believe; they say what they want you to believe. Discard the quaint conceptions of “truth” and “falsity” when they conflict with this rule.

9. Might makes right. If you want to be believed, make a statement of fact backed up by a threat of force (implied or explicit). You’ll be surprised how quickly people will agree with you. If you want to claim property rights, have a credible threat against those who do not respect your claim on the property. Established “facts” and “rights” are based on this principle.

10. Laws, traditions and prejudices are two edged swords- sometimes they protect the worthy from the envious, and other times they help the undeserving keep their ill-gotten gains. Defend law and tradition if it helps you protect what is yours; oppose them if they keep power and property in the hands of those who don’t deserve it. [/sblock]

[sblock=CHAOTIC EVIL]

1. First of all, do no harm. Harm is whatever prevents YOU from reaching YOUR destiny.

2. To discover your destiny, explore your hungers, desires and obsessions. These are the only true guides to action. When they are sated, develop new ones.

3. Seek the good. Remember: wanting something makes it good. Avoid the evil; evil is whatever hurts or hinders you.

4. Tearing someone down is the same as building yourself up, only easier. Taking away someone else's good is better than getting something similar for yourself, as you end up twice as far ahead.

5. Preserve your sense of self. Shun empathy and compassion, two ways of losing the self. Keep yourself free. Avoid generosity and cooperation; they are voluntary forms of self enslavement. Strive to overcome the five great weaknesses: conscience, responsibility, regret, guilt and shame.

6. The reason why others exist is so that you can use them to achieve your destiny. Threats and bribes are the means whereby you use them.

7. You have no equals- you have inferiors, who exist to further your goals, and superiors, whose strength you respect and strive to imitate.

8. Anyone who harms you is an enemy. Remember- if they thwart your desires, they are doing you harm. Do them harm first.

9. If someone can hurt you, but you can’t hurt them, you should do what they tell you to do. Especially if this is something you like doing anyway.

10. A "friend" is someone of equal power who wants to use you for their own goals. Go along with them if you like, but make sure you use them too. [/sblock]

To respond to the OP; If an aligned plane embodies a paradigm of reality, a paradigm more or less described by these 9 sets of guidelines, then it will be extremely diffficulty for an outsider not to also embody that paradigm. It would be like having a frost creature native to the plane of fire. Sure you could do it, but it would be an anomoly, totally contrary to the nature of the plane. Evil angels and good demons would be similar anomolies.
 


Now in the Tales of Wyre series of stories (incomplete though they are...:() there is a certain internal tension between perfect law and perfect goodness (and probably between other "pure" forms of alignment). The tension between justice and mercy, for instance. In Sepulchrave's Wyre this is reflected by a dialectical process of becoming in the nature of Oronthonism, and an increasingly deep and subtle awareness on the part of some of the characters (both PC and NPC) as they are caught up in a plot occasioned by the repentence of a succubus.

Aside from this there *could* be complexities in the inhabitants of an aligned plane. A LG heaven could easily have inhabitants who are NG and LN; there might also be avenging angels whose alignment is actually evil; they do the "dirty jobs" which a LG deity needs to have done.

And there can be atypical residents of a plane. Almost all creatures on the Prime are powered by positive energy, but there are a few undead there too. So why could there not also be a few evil creatures in a LG heaven? Or creatures made of "cold flame" on the plane of fire? But there would have to either be an explanation of their presence, or the metaphysics of the setting would have to be sufficiently sophisticated (a la Wyre) that these anomolies would be tantalizing mysteries, not a jarring breach of the players' suspension of disbelief.
 

No doubt similar to the article I wrote and refer to, which is alignment in a sublime reality. That's why this conversation can contiue ad infinitum; it's absolutely up to the writer how he wants to handle it. Can it happen? RAW says "er... what?" Would YOU let it happen? Meh, Lucifer did it. He was an angel (see why we can't avoid religion? But I'm referring to the story, not anyone's faith, so please remain calm) who turned on God (Hubris) and was cast out by Michael and then plotted revenge.

IF you're dealing with the idea that they "Fell", then you would (conceivably) include the idea that they can Ascend. Can they love? Is that enough of a reason? More importantly, will the players care? You can explain darn near anything with poetic license and the simple decision "I want to do this, this way." Okay. Then no amount of discussion will alter that.

Ultimately, all you're going to get from us, the Peanut Gallery, are our collected thoughts on alignment and story telling based on how those alignments (mechanics) translate into the world (story). But hey, we'll help you as much as possible, just expect a lot of intense debate.
 

anton1066 said:
If you read milton and think satan is a good guy, you need to reread it.
I was using "good" in the loosest sense of the word. Probably a bad idea (in the loosest sense of the word "bad") in the context of an alignment discussion. I stand by heroic, though.


:)
 

Anti-Hero. He tried to topple Heaven, dude. Because he thought he could do a better job. He then proceeds to turn Hell into... well, Hell. Anti-Hero.
 

I would recommend checking out Vertigo comics Lucifer series. By Mike Carey, and basically a spin-off of Neil Gaiman's Sandman (especially volume 4- Season of Mists). Lucifer is an arrogant SOB, but does have a lot of very admirable qualities.
 

i didn't really go threw all the opinions posted, cuz i wanted to post mine, if u think about it, its basically an opinion ordeal, i jus got done not to long ago playin the game Tales of Symphonia, where the Angels were also the bad guys but only to revive the "vessel-less" (body-less) Martel (Goddess), so Mithos (the goddess' brother) was an angel, he was a half-elf and wanted to eliminate all humans/elfs/dwarfs, and make it so that only half-elves should live and prosper because they were discriminated, Martel's dream was to have every race together in harmony, while Mithos took it as a time when Half-elves would rule, while he was an angel, he also had evil intentions but he thought they were good, but everyone thought they were bad, including 2 former allies and of course his sister
 

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