AC vs. reflex and what is what

[Silverblade The Ench]

What worries me to the "Reflex saves for Touch attack" change, is: so, what can you use against monks and dragons then?

That's a serious worry, IMHO. Every creature should have a weakness. For creatures with "all good saves", generall you need to use touch attacks.

Now, a dragon should have good Reflex save, not because it can avoid a fireball, but because it's armour is so damned thick it can laugh off many such hits. If that was changed so it had low Refex...meh...but if it's Reflex stays high and THAT is used for Touch attacks, well, that's you right up the creek!

*scratches head, puzzled and worried*

 

[Ragnar69]

What worries me to the "Reflex saves for Touch attack" change, is: so, what can you use against monks and dragons then?

That's a serious worry, IMHO. Every creature should have a weakness. For creatures with "all good saves", generall you need to use touch attacks.

Now, a dragon should have good Reflex save, not because it can avoid a fireball, but because it's armour is so damned thick it can laugh off many such hits. If that was changed so it had low Refex...meh...but if it's Reflex stays high and THAT is used for Touch attacks, well, that's you right up the creek!

*scratches head, puzzled and worried*

Huh? monks in 3e pretty much have normal AC=touch AC
Besides, in 4e there are no "good" and "bad" saves, everyone gets half level on every save.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Huh? monks in 3e pretty much have normal AC=touch AC
Besides, in 4e there are no "good" and "bad" saves, everyone gets half level on every save.

Ragnar,
Monks have extremely good saves and evasion (and a few other defences), thus forcing arcanes to use no-save or touch attacks on them for decent effectiveness.
Monks do have, usually, the best touch AC of all classes, but it's not as bad as their Evasion, good Will save and Fort (most monks have good Wisdom and Con) etc, IMHO

Monks touch AC is good but it is rarely , least not in my games, nearly as good as their full AC, because amulets natural armour, and bracers of armour or similar, are their main worn armour.

So given the choice, I use touch attacks on them, if no better no-save or Conjuration effects are appropriate

 

[KarinsDad]

Monks touch AC is good but it is rarely , least not in my games, nearly as good as their full AC, because amulets natural armour, and bracers of armour or similar, are their main worn armour.

So given the choice, I use touch attacks on them, if no better no-save or Conjuration effects are appropriate

Sure, the Monks have somewhat higher AC than touch AC, especially at higher levels, due to Bracers/Amulets (moreso if they go the Amulet of Natural Armor route instead of the Amulet of Mighty Fists route).

But, touch attacks are not used by Fighters (shy of Trip/Grapple). They are used by either Clerics/Druids with +3/4 BAB for lousy damage/effect spells, or by Wizards/Sorcerers with +1/2 BAB for better damage/effect spells.

At most levels, this means that the chance of the Wizard hitting touch AC is less than the chance of the Fighter hitting normal AC when facing a Monk. Sure, the Clerics/Druids can hit slightly more often, but most of their normal touch attack spells suck.

As levels go up, the Wizard tends to do more damage than the Fighter, but on a full round attack, the Fighter hits more often. It balances out.

The best thing for a Wizard to do against a Monk is to levitate out of his reach and let the Fighter kick his butt. The Wizard should concentrate on other foes. Even moreso than using touch attacks against the Monk.


Your original concern about Reflex saves for a dragon might be valid, but we don't know yet. Even if Reflex Defense is the new Touch AC in 4E, we cannot yet speculate on whether that is good or bad without knowing all of the 4E rules. A Dragon might have a high Reflex Defense and some Wizard spells might have bonuses to "hit it". We just do not know yet.

 

[kodyboy]

so it appears that everyone here thinks that AC will be used for most attacks and then reflex defense for what used to be touch attacks, spells etc. Is that what most of you think?

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Ragnar,
Monks have extremely good saves and evasion (and a few other defences), thus forcing arcanes to use no-save or touch attacks on them for decent effectiveness.
Monks do have, usually, the best touch AC of all classes, but it's not as bad as their Evasion, good Will save and Fort (most monks have good Wisdom and Con) etc, IMHO

Monks touch AC is good but it is rarely , least not in my games, nearly as good as their full AC, because amulets natural armour, and bracers of armour or similar, are their main worn armour.

So given the choice, I use touch attacks on them, if no better no-save or Conjuration effects are appropriate

1. Think of the poor non-casters who don't GET to pick what type of save they're rolling against!

2. It doesn't matter anyway; the differing save progressions are gone now. Every class gets level/2 as a bonus to defenses, attack rolls, and (I believe) AC, in place of having different saves and BAB per class. However, some classes get bonuses to various defenses, attack rolls, etc. as class bonuses, so a wizard should still have a better Will defense than a fighter and so on. Monks might have better defenses than other classes, but it won't be by such a large amount at high levels.

 

[Sir Brennen]

so it appears that everyone here thinks that AC will be used for most attacks and then reflex defense for what used to be touch attacks, spells etc. Is that what most of you think?

At this point, based on available info, yes, that appears to be the general consensus.

Monks have extremely good saves and evasion (and a few other defences), thus forcing arcanes to use no-save or touch attacks on them for decent effectiveness.
Monks do have, usually, the best touch AC of all classes, but it's not as bad as their Evasion, good Will save and Fort (most monks have good Wisdom and Con) etc, IMHO

Monks touch AC is good but it is rarely , least not in my games, nearly as good as their full AC, because amulets natural armour, and bracers of armour or similar, are their main worn armour.

So given the choice, I use touch attacks on them, if no better no-save or Conjuration effects are appropriate

You're using 3.x to judge the effectiveness of a 4E mechanic. I think that when the designers are talking about paying more attention to the math in this edition, attacks vs. defenses are a primary focus, and concerns like yours are taken into account (if they even exist anymore.)

 

[frankthedm]

What worries me to the "Reflex saves for Touch attack" change, is: so, what can you use against monks and dragons then?

That's a serious worry, IMHO. Every creature should have a weakness.

Not when only a few classes can take advantage of the supposed weakness. Casters deserve to have to put up with a foes defenses as much as the non casters do. Thats why plenty of spells have partial effect on successful saves.

For creatures with "all good saves", generall you need to use touch attacks.

That is a bug, not a feature. If a creature is granted all good saves, then yes, it is supposed to be hard to effect with magic.

*scratches head, puzzled and worried*

Be worried.