Academic Plague in gaming

Sholari said:
According a seminar my friend attended at Gencon Socal on the state of the roleplaying industry people are leaving the hobby and it was rather depressing. If there is anybody that did attend the seminar, I'd be curious to hear exactly what was said. I agree with the essence of what Nisarg is saying.

This has been happening for years. RPG publishers will, over the next 5-10 years, shift to PDF and POD models or be so large that they're available in the major book chains. I would not be surprised to see a drop of 50%+ in hobby stores selling RPGs over that time period.

CMG and CCG publishers and stores will continue to grow, it's the RPG market that's slowly dying.
 

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Nisarg said:
Today there are people who see RPGs as "art" or as "literature", failed novelists and failed grad students trying to make RPGs into something they aren't, killing it for everyone.
There is also a very very insular and selfish mainstream of gamers, who want games made for THEM.
i.e. most gamers are in their mid to late 20s, and want games that appeal to THEIR generation, THEIR sense of style, THEIR education and THEIR views of the world.

Ah, I see: this is a polemic, not a discussion. I do apologize for the misunderstanding.
 

Nisarg said:
Today there are people who see RPGs as "art" or as "literature", failed novelists and failed grad students trying to make RPGs into something they aren't, killing it for everyone. (emphasis added)
Nisarg

This is the core of your original post and I just disagree. The vast majority of RPGers are playing D&D and do not even know about those folks. As far as their influence on designers go - I'm not seeing it in d20.

Years ago I met James Wallis. Seemed like a nice guy, but he was definitely someone who wanted to take RPGs to a "higher place." I think it killed him that my favorite game at the time WFRP outsold everything and anything else he put out. He seemed to think RPGs should evolve. In the end, it seemed to burn him out. Like Wallis, these folks at Forge are trying to make the game something it will never be for the vast majority of us. I cannot see them causing the kind of damage you fear.
 

Amy Kou'ai said:
Ah, I see: this is a polemic, not a discussion. I do apologize for the misunderstanding.

This was already obvious from the first post ;). The way Nobilis is written has absolutely nothing to do with the decrease of the RPG market. Nobilis has no influence whatsoever on the RPG market.

The real reasons, the complexity of the games, the competition with CRPGs and the lack of introduction to new players, are given in Sholari's post.
 

Turjan said:
This was already obvious from the first post ;). The way Nobilis is written has absolutely nothing to do with the decrease of the RPG market. Nobilis has no influence whatsoever on the RPG market.

The real reasons, the complexity of the games, the competition with CRPGs and the lack of introduction to new players, are given in Sholari's post.

Ah, you mean the post where Sholari agrees with me?

Ok..wow, you really got me there. :\

Nisarg
 
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pogre said:
This is the core of your original post and I just disagree. The vast majority of RPGers are playing D&D and do not even know about those folks. As far as their influence on designers go - I'm not seeing it in d20.

Well, if you've read Ryan Dancey's essays on the subjects, he explains that D20 was designed (as a system and as a marketing tool) as a kind of vaccine against these very kinds of games.

This was in a time (don't know how young or old a gamer you are) when the RPG industry basically crashed, D&D had failed, and a slew of games whose chief characteristics were pretentiousness and lack of profitability had led to a mass exodus from gaming.

D20 was a specific response to the crowd of failed novelists, failed grad students and all around pretentious twits who were hijacking gaming to the grave.

But if its a vaccine, its not a cure (well, there's some indication that Dancey hoped it really would be a cure, and everyone would just play D20, but that didn't happen and was never really realistic), and one has to watch out that the disease doesn't adapt and strike again.

Figuring out a new booster shot every once in a while is a good idea too.

Nisarg
 

Nisarg said:
Nothing has to.
Its not like in the 80s and early 90s the video game didn't exist.
In fact, video games and rpg games have both been around for almost exactly the same length of time.
I don't know what 80's and early 90's you grew up in, but the 80's/90's I grew up in didn't have the high-speed internet, group-play RPG/FPS that exist currently. Nothing like it at all. Fact is, around me, home computers in the 80's were rare, and home computers typically had 14400 baud modems in the earily 90's (though I think 36s were coming out about that time. I'm a bit fuzzy on that.)

Point I'm making is that today's youth has a much more powerful/speedy connection to other players via the internet than any time previously. Heck, you can play online with your PS2 and Xbox (I think, not up on all the consoles). Todays games are beeeeautiful compared to what was available in the timeframe you specified and computers are much, much cheaper (in comparative spending dollars) now than then, also.

If the point you're making is just the existance of video games and rpgs at the same time, cool. Point taken. But there's a whole lot more variables that need to be taken into account than just co-existance.
 

Nisarg said:
Ah, you mean the post where Sholari agrees with me?

Ok..wow, you really got me there.

Nisarg

No, I mean the thread here. This should have been clear from the summary I gave, if you cared to read it ;).

With your first post and some of the following, you fell into the same trap you try to attack: academic navel-gazing. Nobilis was about the worst example you could use to prove your point.

Nisarg said:
D20 was a specific response to the crowd of failed novelists, failed grad students and all around pretentious twits who were hijacking gaming to the grave.

You really have a fixation with these "failed academics". TSR's failure was homebrewed. There's not much that "failed academics" can do to the industry leader, if the industry leader makes no mistakes on his own.
 
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I'm just going to port this over from the other thread since this is really talking about the same thing, just from a larger context and its something I feel strongly about. Sorry in advance if this cheeses anyone off...

From another thread...

A friend who just got back from GenCon Socal was relating to me one of the seminars he sat through on the State of the RPG Industry. Besides relating that the news was on the depressing side, he confirmed something that I have suspected for the last year or so… that the industry is losing players. Personally, I think there is some real leadership needed otherwise the table top hobby as we know it is going to atrophy significantly over the next 5-10 years. While I don’t expect everyone to agree with the points I’m about to make, I want to at least get I dialogue going. Often we are so focused on the details of our hobby, that we fail to look at the big picture.

The following my thoughts about the failings of the industry as a whole:

1) Rules Complexity: While there has been enormous creativity in a lot of the rules and options, it is particularly daunting for new players coming into the game. Experienced players may be able to browse through loads of prestige classes, feats, etc., but for a new player this represents potentially thousands of pages of material they may have to understand and synthesize. Moreover, the complexity of 3.5 is greater than past editions. Admittedly, I like 3.5 the best, but I’ve witnessed more DM burnout with 3.5 than with any addition in the past. A good deal of this can be attributed to the added complexity of 3.5 and its proliferation of options. I can’t imagine how difficult it must be for a new DM, just trying to figure out the basics of what books should I buy when there are some many rules variants out there or how to balance all the feats and prestige classes to preserve a game in the long run.

2) Fragmentation: Around the time that TSR was near its end, one of the major problems the sheer number of different game worlds really split its customer base and made it harder to put a group together. It also reduced the utility of game books. If you bought a book for Ravenloft it was very difficult to integrate it with Hollow World perhaps. While some of the initial books from 3rd edition were easy to integrate, over time there has been a sharper increase in industry fragmentation. Not only do you have people fragmented by OD&D, 1st Ed, 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed, 3.5 Ed. But now you have people fragmented by d20 Future, d20 Modern, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dragonlance, Iron Kingdoms, Home Brew, and just a slew more. I’d say this is analogous to having too many programming languages in the computer industry. All the variety is great but learning each new iteration is an investment of time. With people split over some many iterations, I think it has really hurt the industry.

3) New Blood: I remember seeing a poll here some time ago about when people on this board had started roleplaying and was struck to see it was about 10-14 years of age. As I look back the people that stuck with the hobby over the years often started at that age. The game is a lot more likely to capture your imagination in these preteen years and as your transition past this age your probability of trying and/or sticking with the game diminishes. I’d say this is a very unique example of customer lifetime value. The industry acquires its customer 10-14 year age range and for the next 30+ years it harvests value from that customer. The games currently are not very good at acquiring customers in that critical age range because with the proliferation of options and material it is just to darn complex for the average 10-14 year to understand or DM. We need a more simplified version to bring in new players and DMs at this age range. It is more than must just a boxed set, but a significant amount of support material that captures their imagination of the average preteen and good marketing campaign that really appeals to them (not us old groknards).

4) Lack of Leadership: This is just my impression but I think Wizards of the Coast made a huge mistake it letting some very talented people who knew the industry go. When it was acquired by Hasbro it got rid of the game developers who really understood the fundamentals of the industry and replaced them with marketers that didn’t. With what the company is putting out now, I think Wizards of the Coast is really struggling to find its place in the industry. It has opted for a heavy rules and options orientation but is often beaten to the punch by third party publishers. Furthermore, (with the exception of Eberron) its recent work ranks among the most uninspiring and lacks forethought as to the future of the hobby.

5) Lack of Inspiration: First, a disclaimer… there are some very notable exceptions to this such as Dungeon Magazine, Iron Kingdoms, Eberron, etc., however, the bulk of stuff put out by the roleplaying industry lacks inspiration. There are just too many books on prestige classes, feats, etc. with no context other to give players and unfair advantage over game balance. If the gaming industry were a farmer its activities would be broken into two parts. There are certain activities that grow the grain and other activities that harvest the grain. Growing the grain helps to build the player base of the industry as a whole, however, harvesting the grain is what makes money. What increases the player base of the industry are memorable roleplaying experiences and what helps to create these are modules, works with more fluff than crunch, good DMing, etc. Unfortunately, the products which support these activities are not in themselves profitable for individual companies but benefit the industry as a whole. Other activities such as crunch books are what harvest the grain and what actually make money for companies. I’d argue that the majority of gaming companies these days are far too caught up in harvesting the grain and not enough are growing the grain. And who is to blame them because they are in business to make money, but the industry as a whole needs to somehow think about how to support both activities.

6) Lack of Stewardship – I’m sorry to say this but the majority of roleplayers are just not very good representatives of our hobby. We have to take a step back and think how we come across to the general populace. What mom is going to want her kid playing roleplaying games when a large proportion of the roleplaying populace is in bad shape, bad health, lack manners, are not friendly, wear dour expressions half the time, etc. I know I’m overgeneralizing a bit here but there is a lot we can do to be better representatives for our hobby.

Anyway, I apologize in advance if I have offended anybody. The intent is that I want to see roleplaying games continue to thrive for years to come and not go the way of something like bridge where it’s mainly played in old folks homes. I encourage you to disagree with me, but if you do my challenge to you is to identify what are the industry’s problems and what can we do about them for the future.
 

Doc_Klueless said:
I don't know what 80's and early 90's you grew up in, but the 80's/90's I grew up in didn't have the high-speed internet, group-play RPG/FPS that exist currently.

If the point you're making is just the existance of video games and rpgs at the same time, cool. Point taken. But there's a whole lot more variables that need to be taken into account than just co-existance.

Good point. I know many RPG'ers who like MMORPGs, even people of the older generation (the oldest I know is 68 :D). One other guy who was always a DM for D&D games in Middle Earth switched to building modules for NWN. The internet has several advantages over P&P games: the rules are taken care of by the computer, and putting groups together is much easier. I suppose that we will see further migration of RPG players into this direction and that the new generation will generally start there already today.
 

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