Activating a scroll

[Izerath]

Hmm.

The problem I see with this argument is that all four activation methods (Spell Completion, Spell Trigger, Command Word, Use Activated) specify the type of action required. So, if we accept that all scrolls are standard actions to use by virtue of being Spell Completion items (and not affected by the 'casting time of a spell is the time required to activate an item' statement, because the spell completion description says otherwise), then the entire second paragraph under Magic Items is useless fluff. Blah blah blah 'unless the item description indicates otherwise', and every method of activation does so indicate.

So. I see two options: either that second paragraph under 'Magic Items' is just a waste of space, or the phrase 'unless the item description specifically states otherwise' was meant to refer to only the actual ITEM description, not the description of the activation method.

I thought about replying to Piratesmurf's counter - but I think this last statement sums up the quandry quite nicely. The only place I have found any sort of statement as to the time it takes to use a scroll is on pg 213 of the DMG.

So, if we accept that all scrolls are standard actions to use by virtue of being Spell Completion items (and not affected by the 'casting time of a spell is the time required to activate an item' statement, because the spell completion description says otherwise),

I am really baffled by the misinterpretation of this one line () in quotes above. Read it as a statement.

"The casting time of a spell is the time required to activate an item."

Activating an item (in this case, a scroll) is a standard action.
Thus the casting time is irrelevant. It takes a standard action to cast a spell from a scroll.

...the phrase 'unless the item description specifically states otherwise' was meant to refer to only the actual ITEM description, not the description of the activation method.

This is EXACTLY how I interpret this statement, thus the crux of my post and stand that all scrolls are spell completion items and require a standard action to use, regardless of metamagic.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I am really baffled by the misinterpretation of this one line () in quotes above. Read it as a statement.

"The casting time of a spell is the time required to activate an item."

Activating an item (in this case, a scroll) is a standard action.
Thus the casting time is irrelevant. It takes a standard action to cast a spell from a scroll.

Back to front.

If I make the statement "x = 2", it means the variable x has a value of 2.

If I make the statement "2 = x", it means the variable x has a value of 2. It doesn't mean that the value of the constant 2 changes to match whatever x is.

If I say "The time it takes to walk to work is 30 minutes", or "30 minutes is the time it takes to walk to work", in both cases, it takes me half an hour. I'm explaining something that is unknown (the time it takes) in terms of something that is known (30 minutes).

The way you're reading it, I can say that since a/ activating the power 'Enlarge Person' from a potion (an item) is a standard action, therefore the casting time of Enlarge Person is a standard action. I can ignore the fact that the spell text says "Casting Time: one round", and my sorcerer can cast Enlarge Person as a standard action, because potions of Enlarge Person exist.

But it's backwards. The activation time is defined by the casting time. We know the casting time of Enlarge Person is one round; therefore the activation time of Enlarge Person is one round, unless the item description specifically states otherwise. The item description of potions does; they take a standard action to activate. The item description of scrolls doesn't; therefore the rule above applies, and the casting time of the spell (one round) is the time required to activate the power from a scroll.

Activating an item (in this case, a scroll) is a standard action.

Activating an item is a standard action. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item.

If you're duplicating a spell, it's an exception to the standard action rule. The casting time of the spell is the activation time, instead of a standard action being the casting time.

-Hyp.

 

[Zandel]

Hyp is right.... in all respects that he's posted above.

 

[smootrk]

Why not just make spells like Feather Fall (or other spells that need this instantaneous activation process) into token like objects which can be easily invoked with a simple gesture or command word (special case that supercedes normal magic item activation). An actual scroll of this spell is only useful for distribution to other wizard types who would want to add it to their spellbook.

With a token-like object, I don't see the need for any special rules or changes and I would say that it cost approximately the same +/- a few gold. Certain fixes the issue and could save any arguements about the process.

If a wizard is looking for a spell to add to his spellbook... buy an actual scroll
If the wizard wants a safety net spell for saving him and his buddies from a nasty fall, purchase a Feather Fall Token item for approximately the same price. Seems fair.

BTW, overall I am in the camp that thinks scroll casting should take the same amount of time as actual casting of the spell. The purpose of scrolls originally was to extend the caster's capabilities and provide a method for distribution, not to bypass the casting times rules for spells with extra long casting times. When those 'purposes' cannot be met with a scroll, it is time for a different mechanism to achieve the desired result.

 

[Izerath]

Understood, but then why bother with scrolls at all?

Hyp. -

First and foremost, I understand your logic, but where I lay the blame for the confusion is that by your interpretation, a spell is considered an "item" and thus that item can be the exception to the rule.

And gee - couldn't this be more clearly stated?

"However, the time required to activate an item that "casts" a spell is the same as the casting time of the spell as listed in the spell description, unless the item's description specifically states otherwise."

Secondly, understanding that this is how the rule is intended, the language for it sucks. In fact the entire darn passage bites it.

So, point conceded Hyp. I don't like it, but after your mathmatic example, I understand your angle.

Admittedly, I also checked out the "Rules of the Game" article on Using magic items (part two). Skip is pretty good at getting through the lawyer-speak in this stinking game (can you tell it's a love-hate relationship for me??) and he's got his ear to the ground as a developer.

This certainly doesn't mean I am going to change the way I run it in my home game! I like it "my way," and it's a lot easier to just outlaw the swift and quicken feats from being applied to scrolls. This way, the reduced casting time benefit only affects a minority of spells, since most spells are a Standard action to cast anyway. That, and I don't want my players running around casting 2 spells a round every combat! I guess I am just "old school" that way.

[sblock=RANT (at no one in particular): ]Who needs a lawyer to read this crap!?

If I want to read a law book, I'd go to law school. I'm trying to play a game. They try to write the rules clearly. They even define "key words" for you, like spell, power and item. Then they use the damnable things interchangably! Since when does spell=power=item???
I am all for a 4e - so long as they follow one rule. There shall never be more than one comma or conjunction in any sentence. Speak plainly - PLEASE!
[/sblock]
Peace out.