D&D 5E Adapting Old Modules: Question About Level Ranges

[pukunui]

I'd always assumed the level range was how much the characters were expected to level during the adventure, at least on more modern modules.

Yes, that is the case with WotC-era adventures. Unfortunately, it is not the case with TSR-era adventures. If you look at old 1e and 2e adventures, you'll often see it says that the PCs should have X total levels. If the adventure says it's for levels 5-7, that means PCs of levels 5, 6, or 7 can play it, and the party's individual levels should add up to a certain amount*. So if you've got all 5th level PCs, then I guess that means you just need more of them.


*I have got nowhere near all of the 1e/2e era modules, but of the ones I do have, the only one that uses an average level instead of a total number of levels is C1 - Hidden Shrine of Tamaochan.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

[sidebar: one of my players is an old 1st editioner, who searched everything for traps in LMOP. Not finding any he gave up. First trapped object encountered in a 1e conversion...boom. Oh, how I laughed (strokes cat, summons boiler suited henchman)]

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

So, Against the Giants is Levels 8-12, I'd say it would be 6-10 in 5e; 5-9 if you have 6+ PCs.

Really? By the DMG encounter building guidelines, a party needs to be epic to survive common encounters in Fire Giants, and 14-16 in Hill Giant.
Which has really bothered me, as I want to run this in 5E. So I'm really curious as to how this works. Do you use 1E monsters as is, or use them from the 5E MM?

 

[TwoSix]

[MENTION=54629]pukunui[/MENTION] barn's have crappy AC and can't stealth for sh*t. Also, fire.

Far better to play a gazebo.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Since I'm making sure that the PCs in my campaign are all the same level, how should I go about reading those level ranges in terms of appropriateness for my party? Should I take the median? So like, if an AD&D adventure says it's for levels 5-7, should I aim to use it at 6th level? If it says it's for levels 1-3, should I aim for 2nd level?

You can take the level ranges on old modules as fair for 5e, though for different reasons.

In classic D&D, classes had different exp progressions and multi-class characters split exp among their classes. So a 5th level multi-classed character might be every bit as capable as a 7th level single-classed one, or a 5th level Cleric or Fighter noticeably tougher than a 7th level thief. So part of the idea of a 4-7 or 8-12 module wasn't just that players might happen to have different-level PCs, but that some 8th level PCs might be equivalent in power and total exp to other PCs who were as high as 12th level.

In 5e, everyone uses the same progression, but Bounded Accuracy lets characters of differing levels work together fairly smoothly, still all being able to be challenged hitting the same DCs and ACs. At worst, the lower-level characters may be a bit fragile and under-contribute in terms of DPR.

Or, since many of these old modules were also written with 6-8 PCs in mind (were groups really that big back then?!),

I don't know if all modules were written with such specific assumptions, tournament modules may well have been. But, in general, yes groups could be pretty large back in the day, not just 6-8 but as many as 12. (Heck, I've run 12-player games as recently as 2011.) PlayerM ratios had a lot to do with it. Games also tended, IMX to be longer, too, 8 hours or more. One local convention, started c1976, still uses mainly 6 & 8 hr slots, and a minimum of 6 players when scheduling most of its RPGs. It only just started taking 4hr RPGs with the introduction of 5e (something long overdue considering the 1-2hr Encounters format was popular for years before).

OTOH, I've heard that conventions on the east coast tended to use much shorter slots.

should I go for the top level? So if I've got an adventure that's for levels 5-7, should I aim to use it at 7th level since I'll have fewer than the expected number of PCs?

5e PCs have it a lot easier in some ways than classic D&D. There's no spell interruption, casting's more flexible, multiple attacks kick in earlier & hit easier, you get more out of your CON bonus to hps, etc, etc... Bottom line is a 5-PC 5e party can probably handle an adventure meant for 6-8 1e PC, if only because they'll have fewer rounds 'wasted' on whiffing or having the wrong spell 'memorized' or the like.

One exception might by Undead. Undead encounters could be pretty inflated based on the assumption of a Cleric Turning them, Turning is less dramatic in 5e and kicks in at 2nd level rather than 1st, and with Druids and Bards as otherwise workable 'healers' in the Cleric's stead, the Cleric isn't as de rigeuer as it used to be.

So I'm really curious as to how this works. Do you use 1E monsters as is, or use them from the 5E MM?

I've had good success running 1e (AD&D) modules as-is, even to the point of not substantially changing monster stats (you have to invert AC for instance), but that was with very low-level modules. AD&D monsters would really want for hps relative to 5e as you went to higher levels.

 

[pukunui]

... if you want a 'light' conversion, you don't need to really go through every single encounter... just identify if there is any monster the level of which is a lot higher than the original (I'd say more than +2) OR if there is any encounter that seems to have a lot of monsters at once.

Right. So let's use one of the mods I've been considering adapting for 5e: the updated 2e version of The Crypt of Istaris. It was originally a 1e tournament mod designed for 6-8 PCs of levels 3-5. However, the 2e version replaced some dretches in the tomb room with a spirit naga! In 5e, the spirit naga is a CR 8 monster! Combine that with the four gargoyles in the same room, and you've got a pretty bloody hard encounter for 5th level PCs, never mind 3rd level ones. Everything else in the adventure is pretty low-level - troglodytes, a wererat, a carrion crawler, a lone troll, some green slime, some zombies, and so on, so the spirit naga really stands out. Now, obviously, I am at liberty to replace that spirit naga with anything else, if I want to, or even downgrade it to be more of a fair fight. But if I want to keep it, that would mean rejigging everything else in the dungeon to be appropriate for 7th or 8th level PCs, right?

 

[feartheminotaur]

We only did one session of G1 at 8th level (5 PCs) before the group quit. The entire hall had like twenty something hill giants, a fire giant, frost giant, several cloud giants and bunch of other creatures (1e loved the giant mobs - "You see 5-50 goblins!"). Attacking them together at once would be as foolishly deadly in 5e as in 1e. The idea is to have them spread out - some in the hall, some in the dungeon below, some mining, etc.

Looking at my initial notes (I didn't finish converting) - I did reduce the total number and slide some of the creatures down: Ogres became half-ogres, Hill giants became orgres, all other giants became hill giants, the chief was a fire giant. I always thought the 'every giant under one roof' was kinda stupid.

I'd just stat the module based on the number of creatures and their encounter combos then determine the CR...OR just change the creatures to fit your party.

 

[Li Shenron]

Right. So let's use one of the mods I've been considering adapting for 5e: the updated 2e version of The Crypt of Istaris. It was originally a 1e tournament mod designed for 6-8 PCs of levels 3-5. However, the 2e version replaced some dretches in the tomb room with a spirit naga! In 5e, the spirit naga is a CR 8 monster! Combine that with the four gargoyles in the same room, and you've got a pretty bloody hard encounter for 5th level PCs, never mind 3rd level ones. Everything else in the adventure is pretty low-level - troglodytes, a wererat, a carrion crawler, a lone troll, some green slime, some zombies, and so on, so the spirit naga really stands out. Now, obviously, I am at liberty to replace that spirit naga with anything else, if I want to, or even downgrade it to be more of a fair fight. But if I want to keep it, that would mean rejigging everything else in the dungeon to be appropriate for 7th or 8th level PCs, right?

I would keep it, and would not rejig anything. It would be just one inappropriately hard encounter. I would let it be, and drop clear hints that the PCs should not attempt to fight it, unless they really want to risk their lives. I would put an inappropriately good treasure behind it, should they decide to try and succeed, but otherwise not make it necessary for the completion of the adventure.

 

[pukunui]

I would keep it, and would not rejig anything. It would be just one inappropriately hard encounter. I would let it be, and drop clear hints that the PCs should not attempt to fight it, unless they really want to risk their lives. I would put an inappropriately good treasure behind it, should they decide to try and succeed, but otherwise not make it necessary for the completion of the adventure.

Unfortunately, the way the adventure is set up, the naga is guarding Istaris' tomb. The PCs have to break into his tomb to get his body. Unless they can lure the naga away somehow, they're going to have to fight it (and the gargoyles). To make matters worse, the tomb itself is fire-trapped. And if they don't get (and destroy) Istaris' corpse in time ... KABOOM! They all die in a magical explosion that completely destroys the crypt and everything in it, along with the surrounding graveyard, and possibly also the town the graveyard is in and all the people in it (depending on whether or not the PCs also found Istaris' magic amulet and destroyed that too).

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Stick with the dretches. They have, what, 2HD? And their schtick is, they can summon other dretches? Sounds ok when mixed with the gargoyles to make a hard but not flip-the-board deadly encounter with some colour. if you feel they need a boost give them more HP or add an extra 1-2. Easier to scale up than nerf down, and feels somehow 'cleaner'.