D&D 5E Adapting the Warlock Chassis for other Classes


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Not even warlocks have a lot of decision points after 3rd-- I mean, all they pick is an invocation every 3 levels or so and spells -- which every spellcaster gets.
Spells for divine casters (and druids) are set at level 3 - and after that it's just a matter of what they requisition from the armoury each morning and their level.
I'll grant you it is more than other classes but when you consider most games stop when they do, it is really 3 invocation choices after 3rd; hardly a "big difference" IMO.
Invocations can be huge and character defining.
The short-rest spell limitation of warlocks really hurts IME. Every player whose tried the class has felt the "spell slot pinch" pretty quickly.
Depends on invocations and playstyle. How much work do you get out of your invocations? Also what level are you? 7-10 can feel bad admittedly.
 

Spells for divine casters (and druids) are set at level 3 - and after that it's just a matter of what they requisition from the armoury each morning and their level.
This comment makes no sense, sorry. Spells for all characters are set at level 3... in one way or another. So, I'm not certain what the point is you're trying to make?

Invocations can be huge and character defining.
They are only a few choices over the 10 or so levels games typically play. And 90% of the time the same invocations get picked over and over, anyway...

Besides, any choice can become huge and character defining if you embrace it/ let it play out that way.

Depends on invocations and playstyle. How much work do you get out of your invocations?
No it doesn't. The one has nothing to do with the "spell-slot pinch". Getting an at-will spell via an invocation doesn't alleviate the pinch IME. Perhaps it helps in yours? A limited "cast-this-spell-once" is even less helpful IMO.

Also what level are you? 7-10 can feel bad admittedly.
Any level can feel the pinch, but yes mostly 10th or lower. After 10th, the mystic arcanums can help pick up the slack of course, but few games ever get that far, and even fewer warlock in those games since they'll probably be multiclassed.
 

This comment makes no sense, sorry. Spells for all characters are set at level 3... in one way or another. So, I'm not certain what the point is you're trying to make?
When you play a warlock, sorcerer, bard, or ranger each time you get a new spell known you pick that spell and it is a permanent character choice. If you're playing a cleric, druid, paladin, or artificer whenever you get a new spell level you just add all the spells known for that level ... just like every member of your subclass.
They are only a few choices over the 10 or so levels games typically play.
A few >> zero. You get two meaningful near-petmanent choices per level most levels (a spell and either a feat or an invocation unless it's a subclass level). In practice it's generally three as warlocks normally also swap out low level spells when they level up.

For most classes it's not almost three a level but one every four levels as you pick feats
And 90% of the time the same invocations get picked over and over, anyway...
You must have seen boring players. I'd say a dozen invocations are decent by L10 and I've seen several more used. And you can only pick five. Even Agonizing Blast isn't essential before level 11 - and yes that does mean I've played without it above level 5.
Besides, any choice can become huge and character defining if you embrace it/ let it play out that way.
But the more you use it the easier it is to make it so.
No it doesn't. The one has nothing to do with the "spell-slot pinch". Getting an at-will spell via an invocation doesn't alleviate the pinch IME. Perhaps it helps in yours?
It depends how flexible you can make it.
A limited "cast-this-spell-once" is even less helpful IMO.
Those are basically all trap choices.
Any level can feel the pinch, but yes mostly 10th or lower. After 10th, the mystic arcanums can help pick up the slack of course,
After 10th you also get three fifth level spells per short rest.
but few games ever get that far, and even fewer warlock in those games since they'll probably be multiclassed.
And anyone "feeling the pinch" before 5th is just moaning IMO even on no short rests or has a serious skill issue. For that matter even levels 5 and 6 should have sorcerers green with envy at warlocks. It's only when their second highest level of spells contains things like Fireball that other casters should make warlocks feel inferior.
 

When you play a warlock, sorcerer, bard, or ranger each time you get a new spell known you pick that spell and it is a permanent character choice.
No, it isn't. Every time you level up, you can exchange a known spell for a new known spell. Not permanent, certainly, but I'll agree much more limited than being able to swap out every spell you have prepared for a different spell, selected from your ENTIRE spell list. (Frankly, I've always thought that was a bit overboard... but that's a different topic.)

A few >> zero. You get two meaningful near-petmanent choices per level most levels (a spell and either a feat or an invocation unless it's a subclass level). In practice it's generally three as warlocks normally also swap out low level spells when they level up.
Yes, a few is greater than zero... nothing new there.

But, let's agree not to count spells, since over half the classes get spells? I don't consider spell selection much of a choice, personally.

For most classes it's not almost three a level but one every four levels as you pick feats
I don't need a choice every level to feel like a class as sufficient decision points for me to enjoy it. Again, as I've said upthread, the other class chassis have plently of decision points.

You must have seen boring players. I'd say a dozen invocations are decent by L10 and I've seen several more used. And you can only pick five. Even Agonizing Blast isn't essential before level 11 - and yes that does mean I've played without it above level 5.
Boring has nothing to do with it. Those dozen invocations depend on the character concept, but once that has been determined, the invocation choices are pratically pre-determined as well, IME.

And anyone "feeling the pinch" before 5th is just moaning IMO even on no short rests or has a serious skill issue. For that matter even levels 5 and 6 should have sorcerers green with envy at warlocks.
No, they are complaining about a serious design issue.

(Bolded) Why, LOL!?!

From levels 2-10 you have 2 SPELLS you can cast during an encounter. Otherwise, you're forced to resort to spamming cantrips. That is a serious pinch unless your groups get in short rests after every encounter? If you play with the oft-used 2 short rest limit per long rest, that is 6 spells for an entire adventuring day.

Other full-casters get that by 3rd level, and by 10th level: 15 spells, 2.5 times what a warlock has.

If a battle goes for more than 3-4 rounds, which IME happens often enough--Warlock feel quite limited by comparison. At least other spellcasters have the option to cast more spells in such cases.

In our current game one of the PCs is a warlock, and with 2 spells (95% of the time hex and then the other slot is 50% cure wounds). Once that first spell slot is used, the player feels like they have to hoard that valuable second slot in case the cure is needed. It is a pinch felt every session.

It's only when their second highest level of spells contains things like Fireball that other casters should make warlocks feel inferior.
Which is over 2/3's of the games levels... 🤷‍♂️

As far as choices made for other classes, I don't have the time (or much of the inclination) to give you a class-by-class breakdown for my personal feelings on them, but if I have time this weekend perhaps I will.

A final note: like many others, in many ways warlocks feel more like half-casters even though they are "full-casters". But even compared to half-casters, warlocks have fewer spell slots by 7th level... Warlock are sort of a wierd 2/3 or 3/4 caster class.
 

No, it isn't. Every time you level up, you can exchange a known spell for a new known spell. Not permanent, certainly, but I'll agree much more limited than being able to swap out every spell you have prepared for a different spell, selected from your ENTIRE spell list. (Frankly, I've always thought that was a bit overboard... but that's a different topic.)
For a cleric a spell is equipment. Changing spells is like going to your wardrobe in the morning - and (with a couple of very minor feat and race exceptions) every cleric of the same subclass has access to exactly the same wardrobe. There is no difference in the character building choices.

Meanwhile a spell for a warlock, sorcerer, or bard is a long term choice and two Draconic sorcerers might not have a single spell in common. Your spells are a big part of who you are
Yes, a few is greater than zero... nothing new there.

But, let's agree not to count spells, since over half the classes get spells? I don't consider spell selection much of a choice, personally.
You might not but I do. For characters where it is a major choice anyway.
I don't need a choice every level to feel like a class as sufficient decision points for me to enjoy it. Again, as I've said upthread, the other class chassis have plently of decision points.
What decision points above level three?

I consider a choice every level to be stingy. If you're only going to level up half a dozen times after level three in about a year of play that's about one choice every two months.
Boring has nothing to do with it. Those dozen invocations depend on the character concept, but once that has been determined, the invocation choices are pratically pre-determined as well, IME.
That's on you.
From levels 2-10 you have 2 SPELLS you can cast during an encounter. Otherwise, you're forced to resort to spamming cantrips.
OK. Reality check on the sorcerer.

At level 5 as a sorcerer you have two third level slots. Unless you're twinning Haste the warlock can match that cold. And a pre-Tasha's sorcerer only knows one more spell than a warlock, but needs to spread it out over three spell levels.

You also get three second level slots. What are these worth in warlock terms? We've got a simple benchmark here. Scorching Ray does 3x2d6 fire damage (average 21 single target damage). Meanwhile Eldritch Blast plus Agonizing Blast with Cha 18 at level 5 does 2*(5.5+4) = 19 Force damage. Or almost the same with a better damage type. You call Eldritch Blast a cantrip but with Agonizing Blast at level 5 it has the effectiveness of a second level spell. (And that's without a "cheat hex" cast before you take a short rest because it lasts eight hours).

So you have four first and three second level spell slots trying to match what the warlock is doing at will with a spammable at will spells that's effectively second level and whatever else the warlock invocations let them spam. Oh, and light armour and extra hit points.

The warlock falls behind at level seven because there is a huge jump from second to third level spells. But a much smaller one to 4th so the combined third and fourth slots work together more than second and third.
That is a serious pinch unless your groups get in short rests after every encounter? If you play with the oft-used 2 short rest limit per long rest, that is 6 spells for an entire adventuring day.
And at fifth level that's six third level spells vs nine leveled spells of which only two are third level and almost half are first level. Plus better non-leveled spell options for the warlock.

A warlock that consistently gets two useful short rests in a day is a monster.
Other full-casters get that by 3rd level, and by 10th level: 15 spells, 2.5 times what a warlock has.
Sure ... if you think that a first level slot is worth as much as a fifth level slot. If you don't then that's six fifth level slots vs two fifth, three fourth, and three thirds.

Tenth is the absolute nadir of warlocks. Now let's look at eleventh with two short rests. Everyone gets a sixth level slot. Then the warlock gets nine fifth level slots while other casters get eight spell slots of level three and above. And that backed by a monster Eldritch Blast and Invocations.

The warlock's actual weakness here is resilience; with no first level slots they're missing Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silvery Barbs. And all warlock defensive invocations are bad (something that I hope 5.24 fixes)
If a battle goes for more than 3-4 rounds, which IME happens often enough--Warlock feel quite limited by comparison. At least other spellcasters have the option to cast more spells in such cases.
Oh noes! Don't make me cast Eldritch Blast! Especially not when other casters are burning their second level slots and I can do this all day.
In our current game one of the PCs is a warlock, and with 2 spells (95% of the time hex and then the other slot is 50% cure wounds). Once that first spell slot is used, the player feels like they have to hoard that valuable second slot in case the cure is needed. It is a pinch felt every session.
Ugh! The problem here isn't the power of the warlock class. It's that your player doesn't get how to play them.

If the warlock is level 5+ then they should basically never be spending a slot to cast either of those spells.

If they have Cure Wounds they are a Celestial, which means they also have Healing Light. And Healing Light is basically Healing Word; it doesn't do much healing but it gives enough healing to bring the recipient back into the fight while allowing the caster to keep beating on whatever took their friend down. So you might not have normal first level slots but you have level+1 uses of what is basically healing word. So when should you cast Cure Wounds? Simple. Before a short rest. When you would otherwise waste the slot. If he needs a slot stored for combat save it for Revivify.

And Hex? Again you cast it before a short rest. It lasts 8 hours. Then you have both slots available.

So there we have it. Your warlock player is making blatantly bad choices and you don't understand the class well enough to have realised it.

And is a problem with the warlock the number of trap options? Yes. Absolutely (and cleaning out the chaff invocations will only help). Does playing a warlock well require a different approach to other classes? Again yes. They are not orthodox full casters. More play styles and approaches is a good thing.
A final note: like many others, in many ways warlocks feel more like half-casters even though they are "full-casters".
Who said that warlocks were full casters? Because they are their own thing.
But even compared to half-casters, warlocks have fewer spell slots by 7th level...
If you don't care about quality this is true.
Warlock are sort of a wierd 2/3 or 3/4 caster class.
Warlocks are their own thing. If you look at just the spells and ignore the invocations they are not great. But invocations are full of both utility to handle their low level spell slot equivalents and junk.
 

From levels 2-10 you have 2 SPELLS you can cast during an encounter. Otherwise, you're forced to resort to spamming cantrips. That is a serious pinch unless your groups get in short rests after every encounter? If you play with the oft-used 2 short rest limit per long rest, that is 6 spells for an entire adventuring day.
The reason that warlocks need to exist in a nutshell.

I know that for a lot of players, that spell "pinch" is awkward and annoying. But for myself (and I think some other tactically minded players), that pinch feels good. Having to make a decision to cast something right now, and know that if I'm wrong, I don't have other spell slots, is a thrill. It's actual consequences and risk.

With other casters, even half-casters at higher levels, it's pretty rare to actually scrape the bottom of your spell reserve. Maybe it should be (6-8 encounters, blah blah blah), but warlocks are the only class that really feels the weight of spell restrictions pretty much every encounter.
 

The reason that warlocks need to exist in a nutshell.

I know that for a lot of players, that spell "pinch" is awkward and annoying. But for myself (and I think some other tactically minded players), that pinch feels good. Having to make a decision to cast something right now, and know that if I'm wrong, I don't have other spell slots, is a thrill. It's actual consequences and risk.

With other casters, even half-casters at higher levels, it's pretty rare to actually scrape the bottom of your spell reserve. Maybe it should be (6-8 encounters, blah blah blah), but warlocks are the only class that really feels the weight of spell restrictions pretty much every encounter.
It is a resource mechanic where smart usage is rewarded and foolish usage is punished.

This is extremely rare in 5e. Usually, it's just foolish usage is punished. Smart usage is baseline.
 

For a cleric a spell is equipment. Changing spells is like going to your wardrobe in the morning - and (with a couple of very minor feat and race exceptions) every cleric of the same subclass has access to exactly the same wardrobe. There is no difference in the character building choices.

Meanwhile a spell for a warlock, sorcerer, or bard is a long term choice and two Draconic sorcerers might not have a single spell in common. Your spells are a big part of who you are

You might not but I do. For characters where it is a major choice anyway.

What decision points above level three?

I consider a choice every level to be stingy. If you're only going to level up half a dozen times after level three in about a year of play that's about one choice every two months.

That's on you.

OK. Reality check on the sorcerer.

At level 5 as a sorcerer you have two third level slots. Unless you're twinning Haste the warlock can match that cold. And a pre-Tasha's sorcerer only knows one more spell than a warlock, but needs to spread it out over three spell levels.

You also get three second level slots. What are these worth in warlock terms? We've got a simple benchmark here. Scorching Ray does 3x2d6 fire damage (average 21 single target damage). Meanwhile Eldritch Blast plus Agonizing Blast with Cha 18 at level 5 does 2*(5.5+4) = 19 Force damage. Or almost the same with a better damage type. You call Eldritch Blast a cantrip but with Agonizing Blast at level 5 it has the effectiveness of a second level spell. (And that's without a "cheat hex" cast before you take a short rest because it lasts eight hours).

So you have four first and three second level spell slots trying to match what the warlock is doing at will with a spammable at will spells that's effectively second level and whatever else the warlock invocations let them spam. Oh, and light armour and extra hit points.

The warlock falls behind at level seven because there is a huge jump from second to third level spells. But a much smaller one to 4th so the combined third and fourth slots work together more than second and third.

And at fifth level that's six third level spells vs nine leveled spells of which only two are third level and almost half are first level. Plus better non-leveled spell options for the warlock.

A warlock that consistently gets two useful short rests in a day is a monster.

Sure ... if you think that a first level slot is worth as much as a fifth level slot. If you don't then that's six fifth level slots vs two fifth, three fourth, and three thirds.

Tenth is the absolute nadir of warlocks. Now let's look at eleventh with two short rests. Everyone gets a sixth level slot. Then the warlock gets nine fifth level slots while other casters get eight spell slots of level three and above. And that backed by a monster Eldritch Blast and Invocations.

The warlock's actual weakness here is resilience; with no first level slots they're missing Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silvery Barbs. And all warlock defensive invocations are bad (something that I hope 5.24 fixes)

Oh noes! Don't make me cast Eldritch Blast! Especially not when other casters are burning their second level slots and I can do this all day.

Ugh! The problem here isn't the power of the warlock class. It's that your player doesn't get how to play them.

If the warlock is level 5+ then they should basically never be spending a slot to cast either of those spells.

If they have Cure Wounds they are a Celestial, which means they also have Healing Light. And Healing Light is basically Healing Word; it doesn't do much healing but it gives enough healing to bring the recipient back into the fight while allowing the caster to keep beating on whatever took their friend down. So you might not have normal first level slots but you have level+1 uses of what is basically healing word. So when should you cast Cure Wounds? Simple. Before a short rest. When you would otherwise waste the slot. If he needs a slot stored for combat save it for Revivify.

And Hex? Again you cast it before a short rest. It lasts 8 hours. Then you have both slots available.

So there we have it. Your warlock player is making blatantly bad choices and you don't understand the class well enough to have realised it.

And is a problem with the warlock the number of trap options? Yes. Absolutely (and cleaning out the chaff invocations will only help). Does playing a warlock well require a different approach to other classes? Again yes. They are not orthodox full casters. More play styles and approaches is a good thing.

Who said that warlocks were full casters? Because they are their own thing.

If you don't care about quality this is true.

Warlocks are their own thing. If you look at just the spells and ignore the invocations they are not great. But invocations are full of both utility to handle their low level spell slot equivalents and junk.
Ok, there is a lot here, but it's fruitless. I have no idea why when I continue to post my personal observation, people seem to feel it is necessary to challenge it. IT IS AN OPINION AND PERSONAL PREFERENCE, folks. You aren't going to "convince" me or anything. It nearly always begins with a "hey that isn't my experience" and eventually escalates to a insanely-detailed multi-reply post...

And there is no call to "dispute it" for the value of others in the thread, because frankly, from the beginning, it is my experience, preference, or whatever.

The reason that warlocks need to exist in a nutshell.
I don't recall ever saying the don't need to be in the game? My point was simply I disgree with the idea of basing other classes on it. Even so, my first posts were trying to be helpful to the thread.

I know that for a lot of players, that spell "pinch" is awkward and annoying. But for myself (and I think some other tactically minded players), that pinch feels good. Having to make a decision to cast something right now, and know that if I'm wrong, I don't have other spell slots, is a thrill. It's actual consequences and risk.

With other casters, even half-casters at higher levels, it's pretty rare to actually scrape the bottom of your spell reserve. Maybe it should be (6-8 encounters, blah blah blah), but warlocks are the only class that really feels the weight of spell restrictions pretty much every encounter.
Great that works for you, but do you want that same experience with clerics, druids, wizards, etc.? IME and IMO most people don't. For me it smacks too much of 4E with encounter powers or whatever.

FWIW, we routinely have casters run out of spell slots--but that is just how our games often run.

But we've gone over this before on page 2, I don't see any value in rehashing it, do you??
 


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