D&D 5E Additive versus subtractive modularity

[Wyckedemus]

You probably could have copied this from my own suggestions I put out some time ago on the wotc boards. I've said over and over again that it goes beyond just finding a way to make it work. There is a principle at work. As easy as it would be for me or for you to create a houserule, it would be just as easy for Wotc to create a houserule. Failure to do so says something. It says they will not support my playstyle or that of many others who feel the same way about hit points.

So my stand against wtoc is one of principle not pragmatism. I'm not going to support a company that consciously excludes my playstyle. And yes I believe that I'd bet my house 20% of the people out there hate martial healing, I believe the number is far higher and is probably approaching 40 or 50%. It doesn't matter though. Even at 20%, their refusal to give any support is inexcusable so debating over numbers is pointless. If you say it's 2% then I don't think much of your intellect (not saying you do think that but hypothetically).

My survivor houserule would probably be DR 5 against the first attack anyone makes against you each round when you are below 50%.

I'm not lover of temp hit points either.

Wow, Emerikol. There are so many wonderful advances in this edition (that other "D&D" makers are not doing) that make this edition stand head and shoulders over others (in my opinion). and you're going to dismiss it based on the existence of this one concept (that I feel you are overinflating).

You're telling us that your playstyle is based only on "martial healing". That's what it has come down to... Nothing in this edition matters other than martial healing. Is that right? If that is saying too much, perhaps you do like a bunch of other things, but this one thing trumps all others and poisons the well for you. Either way, that's pretty extreme.

It's not like this is healing where a fighter is allowed to shout someone's hand back on, or tell a dying unconscious ally to "get up maggot", and they stop dying. Check out the HP rules. If a person has even 1 hit point yet, they have not taken a serious wound. They have minor injuries that they can usually overcome overnight. If they were dropped to 0 with a lethal attack, all it takes is 1 hit point of magical healing to close up all that trauma and bring them back to minor injuries.

I think the main problem people have with "martial healing" is two-fold. A) They think HP is mostly meat; and B) They like to describe serious injuries against players to reflect hit point loss. Take 10 damage? That's an arrow to the thigh. Take 4 damage? You are bleeding freely from a slash in your arm. Critical hit? Your arm is broken. The problem with this is that once you describe damage as a serious injury against a PC, it doesn't make sense for normal rest (or "martial healing") to recover that quickly. In my opinion, strain, bruises, and nicks are best way to describe damage taken by a PC until they are dropped.

You claim 20% of people hate martial healing. I disagree with the intensity of that assertion. Sure there are many people don't like the idea of extreme martial healing as described above, but this edition *isn't that*.

Look at everyone trying to help you with suggestions. But you are ignoring them. Can't you see that you are coming off as an extreme outlier that is spewing vitriol? Let me use your own tactic here: I am having a hard time understanding how you cannot see that what this edition is doing *isn't* the extreme martial healing that most martial healing dissenters want to avoid. I can say this because I am one of those people that does not like martial healing that can cure serious wounds (no pun intended). The limitations of Second Wind (you have to be able to take actions and therefore have at least 1hp), and HD (You have to have at least 1hp), require the PC to not be seriously injured, so I can live with those rules.

You claim it's about the "principle" that the designers don't support your playstyle. I consider myself in the *dislikes Martial Healing working like magical healing" camp, and I feel that the designers are writing it in a way that alleviates my concerns and verisimilitude. I feel that they did listen to me as one of those dissenters. I would recommend reviewing how it works, and consider all aspects of the game that better support aspects of your playstyle.

If you still feel that way, then you may have gone further over the edge when it comes to the camp you claim to represent. You may be an extreme minority. Like people who won't play because Thac0 isn't in the game.

Also, you have been passive-aggressively calling out people's intellect more than once in this thread. That's bad form, man.

... in my opinion.

 

[evileeyore]

And yes I believe that I'd bet my house 20% of the people out there hate martial healing...

If you mean 'hate' to be "Won't have anything to do with 5e because of" then the polls here say you are wrong.

If you mean hate to be "Dislike it but will houserule around or ignore it" then yes, 20% is completely accurate.

 

[Emerikol]

Wow, Emerikol. There are so many wonderful advances in this edition (that other "D&D" makers are not doing) that make this edition stand head and shoulders over others (in my opinion). and you're going to dismiss it based on the existence of this one concept (that I feel you are overinflating).

I do think there are some good things in 5e. I do not consider it overwhelmingly the best edition even ignoring martial healing. It's got good things and bad things. I don't prefer at will cantrips or sorcerer like wizards to be honest. I was going to live with those things because they don't make it impossible to play. Magic can work in any way given it's magic. I don't like arcane recovery at all and would likely ban that. I do not like one hour rests. I'd make those encounter for martials and never for casters. So there are things to like and not like. I like the DM empowerment a lot. I like the skills mostly though I wish they'd kept them optional even though I prefer skills. My favorite thing I like is big feats. Best idea they've had. I do like the simpler rules and fast combat concept.

You're telling us that your playstyle is based only on "martial healing". That's what it has come down to... Nothing in this edition matters other than martial healing. Is that right? If that is saying too much, perhaps you do like a bunch of other things, but this one thing trumps all others and poisons the well for you. Either way, that's pretty extreme.

I'd say for me martial healing and dissociative mechanics are the two things I dislike about roleplaying games in general. They are the primary reasons I hated 4e.

I'm saying that I don't want to wake up one day and discover that every single roleplaying game on the planet uses martial healing and I'm houseruling away until I'm dead. There are companies out there making games that are not using martial healing so maybe I should support them. I really don't consider C&C a bad game. Sure it might require some houserule upgrades but no more or less than 5e and none of them would be to support my playstyle.

It's not like this is healing where a fighter is allowed to shout someone's hand back on, or tell a dying unconscious ally to "get up maggot", and they stop dying. Check out the HP rules. If a person has even 1 hit point yet, they have not taken a serious wound. They have minor injuries that they can usually overcome overnight. If they were dropped to 0 with a lethal attack, all it takes is 1 hit point of magical healing to close up all that trauma and bring them back to minor injuries.

I see what they wrote in the rules. I don't like what they wrote. It has never been true in any D&D game I've ever played that you were uninjured at 1 hit point if your max was over 10. If your max is 2 or 3 then maybe. I realize the game has written rules that disagree with my take on hit points. That is why I'm not feeling very favorable towards the game. I don't disagree though that 5e has fully embraced non-magical healing.

I think the main problem people have with "martial healing" is two-fold. A) They think HP is mostly meat; and B) They like to describe serious injuries against players to reflect hit point loss. Take 10 damage? That's an arrow to the thigh. Take 4 damage? You are bleeding freely from a slash in your arm. Critical hit? Your arm is broken. The problem with this is that once you describe damage as a serious injury against a PC, it doesn't make sense for normal rest (or "martial healing") to recover that quickly. In my opinion, strain, bruises, and nicks are best way to describe damage taken by a PC until they are dropped.

I realize that is the standing position of the other side. If I'm forced to make that concession I'd just rather not play. I prefer to envision some injury that is heroically battled through. I am not saying it's a 100% meat situation either. I am just saying that a 100 hit point fighter at 1 point is likely covered in blood, may be clutching a stab wound, or have a serious concussion with blood running into his eyes. He appears about ready to drop from his wounds. I do not see a perfectly health but tired and scratched person. I see that when that fighter is at 90 or 95 out of a 100.

You claim 20% of people hate martial healing. I disagree with the intensity of that assertion. Sure there are many people don't like the idea of extreme martial healing as described above, but this edition *isn't that*.

Well I at least entertain the idea that some people do not consider second wind martial healing. If they do not then I don't know why they don't. A fighter activates an ability that restores hit points and no magic has happened. He just pulls it out of nowhere. Part of my anger is really how easily they could have addressed the issue. Just offer a few options. I was even willing to totally give them the benefit of the doubt and just work with the DMG optional rules. But if they can actually address the concerns of people over Thac0 but can't find it in their heart to address second wind then what am I to think. They have a very think book there and it takes all of three lines to fix it. I can only think that they are of the opinion that they do not want anyone with my view of hit points anywhere near D&D.

Look at everyone trying to help you with suggestions. But you are ignoring them. Can't you see that you are coming off as an extreme outlier that is spewing vitriol? Let me use your own tactic here: I am having a hard time understanding how you cannot see that what this edition is doing *isn't* the extreme martial healing that most martial healing dissenters want to avoid. I can say this because I am one of those people that does not like martial healing that can cure serious wounds (no pun intended). The limitations of Second Wind (you have to be able to take actions and therefore have at least 1hp), and HD (You have to have at least 1hp), require the PC to not be seriously injured, so I can live with those rules.

The reason why it appears I ignore them is that half of them came from me to begin with and it's never been about me being able to houserule the game. I can write my own game. Honestly. I can. So there is no problem whatsoever with me developing a set of houserules to make 5e work. Why would I do that though when I have all these other companies who actually provide support for my playstyle struggling to survive as they compete against D&D? If I follow D&D and let those companies die then one day there won't even be any game supporting my playstyle. I think that is bad for the hobby.

You claim it's about the "principle" that the designers don't support your playstyle. I consider myself in the *dislikes Martial Healing working like magical healing" camp, and I feel that the designers are writing it in a way that alleviates my concerns and verisimilitude. I feel that they did listen to me as one of those dissenters. I would recommend reviewing how it works, and consider all aspects of the game that better support aspects of your playstyle.

Yet the answers you give are the exact answers the 4e people gave for why martial healing worked. How does Second Wind work without magic? Your answer has to be predicated upon hit point damage not being physical.

If you still feel that way, then you may have gone further over the edge when it comes to the camp you claim to represent. You may be an extreme minority. Like people who won't play because Thac0 isn't in the game.

Also, you have been passive-aggressively calling out people's intellect more than once in this thread. That's bad form, man.

... in my opinion.

I consider anyone saying those who care about martial healing make up 2% of the populace as the same people claiming the world is flat or that the moon landing never happened. I'm sure some exist but no one rational or sensible would think that. I chose 2% to be far far far away from any place that anyone on either side would think reasonable. We can argue 20% vs 40%. But 2% no. If someone thinks that I don't even want to discuss it with them.

 

[Nebulous]

I think the main problem people have with "martial healing" is two-fold. A) They think HP is mostly meat; and B) They like to describe serious injuries against players to reflect hit point loss. Take 10 damage? That's an arrow to the thigh. Take 4 damage? You are bleeding freely from a slash in your arm. Critical hit? Your arm is broken. The problem with this is that once you describe damage as a serious injury against a PC, it doesn't make sense for normal rest (or "martial healing") to recover that quickly. In my opinion, strain, bruises, and nicks are best way to describe damage taken by a PC until they are dropped.

This is the only way to actually do it and create any sense of immersion. The actual "damage" that weapons and monsters do should best be abstracted as "near misses". The problem is that the game gives everything a particular damage rating, so of course it makes sense to think that a "large" weapon is connecting and doing damage, particularly if there is a secondary effect like a pushback.

Then again, it is hard to explain a red dragon doing 50 points of flame damage to a fighter standing in the open, dropping him to 1 hit point, and then then fighter attacks normally

 

[Emerikol]

If you mean 'hate' to be "Won't have anything to do with 5e because of" then the polls here say you are wrong.

If you mean hate to be "Dislike it but will houserule around or ignore it" then yes, 20% is completely accurate.

I would not try and predict peoples actions based on their preferences. I am talking preference here and not action. My actions are my own.

I believe though that hate is appropriate for the mechanic and houseruling around it is their choice.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The problem with this is that once you describe damage as a serious injury against a PC, it doesn't make sense for normal rest (or "martial healing") to recover that quickly

Sure it can. It's a world of orcs and elves and magic, having a battle-hardened warrior grit his teeth, crack his bones back into place, and maybe narrate it as a little sore is COMPLETELY within the genre here, and illustrates what connsumate awesome badasses the PC's can be much better than a bunch of nicks and scrapes.

I mean, that's not a vibe everyone likes, but it's hardly impossible.

 

[Emerikol]

I realize that perhaps I come across as very angry and I admit I am perhaps feeling saddened by the actions of wotc. It's not the end of the world though for wotc or for me. The world is full of games. We play what we like. I have a nostalgic attachment to D&D that makes me give it all sorts of greater leeway and all sorts of greater hope than most other games get. So pulling that band aid off hurts but it's a good thing too. Games should be judged on their merits and not on their past laurels. I need to realize that the company that owned D&D in 1982 is never coming back.

I do enjoy discussing the theory of roleplaying and I'm sure I'll find some game to play even if it is of my own making. I'm not telling anyone not to buy it. I'm not even telling anyone that it's a bad game necessarily if they like what it offers. It's a heck of a lot better than 4e in my opinion. I'm just not buying out of brand loyalty anymore.

 

[Shinju]

I'm just not buying out of brand loyalty anymore.

I don't think anyone should be buying out of brand loyalty. That encourages companies to produce less than the best. Instead buy the product you like best irrelevant of who produced it.

Just my two cents

 

[evileeyore]

I don't think anyone should be buying out of brand loyalty. That encourages companies to produce less than the best. Instead buy the product you like best irrelevant of who produced it.

Just my two cents

That's how I roll... though I do admit to occasionally buying SJGames products I might not care about simply on the off chance my group might want to play it.


I also favor brand hatred where I refuse to purchase or participate with the brand in the hopes it fails. I also try to convince others to follow my lead (though that rarely works).





EDIT:
[rant=tangential]
I implore everyone with a love for good superhero movies to boycott anything having to do with the new Spider-Man Sony movies! Let them slowly fall to the wayside and let the rights revert back to Marvel so we can get an Amazing Spider Man movie and have him in the Avengers!
[/rant]

 

[Wyckedemus]

I realize that perhaps I come across as very angry and I admit I am perhaps feeling saddened by the actions of wotc. It's not the end of the world though for wotc or for me. The world is full of games. We play what we like. I have a nostalgic attachment to D&D that makes me give it all sorts of greater leeway and all sorts of greater hope than most other games get. So pulling that band aid off hurts but it's a good thing too. Games should be judged on their merits and not on their past laurels. I need to realize that the company that owned D&D in 1982 is never coming back.

I do enjoy discussing the theory of roleplaying and I'm sure I'll find some game to play even if it is of my own making. I'm not telling anyone not to buy it. I'm not even telling anyone that it's a bad game necessarily if they like what it offers. It's a heck of a lot better than 4e in my opinion. I'm just not buying out of brand loyalty anymore.

I like the additive modularity style that Wizards is going with. It's more than any other "D&D Alternative" game has done. Keep in mind that as previous editions of D&D have evolved, Wizards has also included replacement modularity options (like in 4E where they add new options that replace class abilities).

However, I don't know of other "D&D Alternatives" that do this. Can you name a "D&D Alternative" game that give you what you want *and* don't have other issues that frustrate you to the point that martial healing does? If you can name those games, I think you are on the right path for finding what works for you. Eventually if D&D releases options that work for you, you can decide if you want to give it a try later. Or just stick with your perfect game.

Have fun! Don't stress about it!

... in my opinion.

[Edited spelling and clarified "Alternative" as I intended.]