Adjudicating Immediate actions

[Nail]

From a mechanics point of view (i.e. allowing the players to get in immediate actions that they should be allowed to do), your point here is really non-sequitor to the discussion.

I respectfully disagree.

Immediate actions can happen during other actions. That does not imply: "Happen between actions". It means: "Can happen at any time within an action sequence." "During" means "During".

Can it happen right after the DM says "The orc's great axe hits." and "The orc's greataxe does 23 hp of damage"? Yup!

From the mechanics view, how an Immediate Action works is clear enough (for me). From a "How I really Play the Game" point of view, it is decidedly less clear. How often should a DM pause in his descriptions of events? Should a Player interupt the DM to shout out "Immediate Action", or some such? Etc.

This is the main concern, and worth discussing.

 

[Nail]

My point is, that it doesn't matter if they are seperate actions or not. Free actions, and therefore immediate actions can be performed WHILE performing other actions. So, WHILE attacking you (or anyone else) can choose to use an immediate action.

Exactly my point.

 

[irdeggman]

My point is, that it doesn't matter if they are seperate actions or not. Free actions, and therefore immediate actions can be performed WHILE performing other actions. So, WHILE attacking you (or anyone else) can choose to use an immediate action.

There are not restrictions listed anywhere about WHEN during an action a free action can be performed. For instance, when you draw a weapon while you are moving, does it happen at the beginning of your move, the middle of your move or the end of your move? Can the person choose if it mattered for some reason?

The same thing applies to immediate actions. If you can use an immediate action WHILE someone is attacking, does it happen before damage is rolled, before the attack is rolled, or before the effects are applied? And can the person casting the spell choose if it helps them?

But resolving damage is not an action at all - that is my point.

Immediate actions can happen during an action but not after it is complete well it can't affect a completed action.

Damage resolution is "outside" the normal train of actions and is resolved once an attack is "confirmed" successfully. So technically you could use an immediate action before the attack is declared (i.e., before rolling the d20), before it is resolved (i.e., confirming it hit) or after it is completed (but it can't affect the what has already happened).

The same logic trail applies to confirming critical hits - the are outside the train of actions.

Effects are applied as "part of" the confirmation of the hit.

 

[Nail]

Immediate actions can happen during an action but not after it is complete well it can't affect a completed action.

Why?

How do you know an action is complete? -> Because the DM tells you so.

Can you act while the DM is telling you so? --> Sure.


If you need help visualizing this:

The greataxe has hit the poor fighter....yet the instant before it enters his body, the resourceful spell caster casts "Delay Death".

Done.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Effects are applied as "part of" the confirmation of the hit.

That's my point. You are still finishing deciding the details of the action (attacking).

In the same way, when you are moving, you can draw a weapon as a free action. You have already begun the action (started to move), but haven't finished it (getting to the destination). The move action is made up of distinct parts though, you move 5 feet at a time until you reach your destination. A person could ready an action for "when he gets within 20 feet of me" and interrupt your move before it was completed.

Thus, it applies that if you've started attacking, that the attack action ends with dealing the damage to the creature. It is made up of distinct parts as well: Choosing which weapon to attack with and what target to hit. Checking if you hit the target. Checking to see if the hit is a critical. Confirming if necessary. Checking to see how much damage you do. Applying the damage.

You can take an immediate action DURING the attack. It just doesn't say WHEN during the attack you can do it. If you can choose, you should be able to at LEAST choose between hit and damage and maybe between damage and applying it to the target (though I think the latter is probably a bad idea to allow).

 

[KarinsDad]

I respectfully disagree.

Immediate actions can happen during other actions. That does not imply: "Happen between actions". It means: "Can happen at any time within an action sequence." "During" means "During".

Can it happen right after the DM says "The orc's great axe hits." and "The orc's greataxe does 23 hp of damage"? Yup!

I respectfully disagree.

I consider the (game mechanics) resolution of an action to be separate from the action. The action has happened. Now we roll dice to see what happened.

This is not the action. This is the determination of the result or resolution of the action.


The moment the spell is cast, the mechanics of the resolution are then handled. Damage dice are rolled, Saving Throws are rolled, the Saving Throw for Massive Damage is rolled, etc.

This is all resolution. It is game mechanics dice decision making. It has nothing to do with the action per se, the action has already happened. We are now just using game mechanic rules and dice to figure out what actually happened. And characters do not do this, players do. Characters do actions. Players do resolution.

Ditto for To Hit. To Hit rolls, Damage rolls, Critical rolls, Trip rolls, AoOs, etc. are all part of resolution. Some of these specifically state that a decision can be made at this time. For example, if you fail in your trip, some weapons allow you to drop your weapon instead of being counter-tripped.

But, unless the rules state that a decision or action can be made during resolution, it should not be allowed.


Action Points specifically allow you to make a decision after a To Hit or Saving Throw is made. Immediate Actions do not as a general rule. A specific Immediate Action might, but not in general.

Special Attacks often have special rules that can interrupt Resolution. As long as they state that, fine.


This is totally different than interrupting an action. Interrupting an action is things using Spell Craft while the caster is casting a spell. You are not YET at the resolution phase (for want of a better phrase). It is still the Action phase (again, for want of a better phrase).

Or, AoOing during Movement.

Movement, by definition, is a segmented action where you have "mini-resolutions" within the action itself. You move 5 feet. Does anything happen? Yes/No. You move another 5 feet. Does anything happen? Yes/No. etc.

But, very few actions are segmented like this. There is no "Pull out material components" phase of a spell, "Start somatic gestures" phase, "Start Verbal portion" phase, etc.

There is "casting the spell" and "resolving what happens with the spell".

You can interrupt "casting the spell" with an AoO, a Readied Action, an Immediate Action, etc.

But, once resolution starts, you cannot interrupt it unless a specific game mechanic explicitly allows for it.

Ditto for combat. Once the "To Hit" dice are rolled, that's it. Any game mechanic that allows you to interrupt this does so. Anything which does not explicitly allow this, does not.


Now, there are no specific rules for this. This is an opinion of mine, just like yours is an opinion that you can cast an Immediate spell between the To Hit roll and the Damage roll.

So, why is my opinion more reasonable or more consistent with the rules than yours?

Because it more closely follows the only Interrupt rules that we do have: Readied Actions.

If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

Your interpretation allows for the interruption of dice rolling. Mine does not. Dice rolling is not a character's activities. It is a player's (or DM's) activities (to determine resolution).

Additionally, the Ready Action rules (both the DMG page 25 and the PHB page 160) always discuss interrupting actions. Not once does the Ready Action sections discuss interrupting dice rolling or other resolution mechanics.


Your interpretation also allows for metagaming. Instead of "I cast my Immediate spell if she starts casting a spell" (similar to the examples in the DMG), yours could be "I cast my Immediate spell if the player picks up a D20 and rolls a to hit with her spell.".

See the difference?

Yours is game mechanics based (metagaming based), mine is action based (in character based).

If you need help visualizing this:

The greataxe has hit the poor fighter....yet the instant before it enters his body, the resourceful spell caster casts "Delay Death".

Done.

Now, I understand that you are trying to squeeze in a "decision point" "between the point in time when the Axe connects and it does actual damage", but nothing in the game really is that fast. For example, you do not get AoOs when someone casts a Swift Spell or an Immediate Spell or a Quickened Spell. By the time you know it has happened, it has happened.

Ditto for an Instantaneous spell. By the time you know that a "bead streaks from the pointing digit", the Fireball has already exploded. You have to interrupt the spell caster BEFORE the bead flies through the air because the spell is Instantaneous.

This is the same reason you cannot Dispel an Instantaneous spell, even with a Readied Action. You can Counterspell with a Dispel, but you cannot Dispel. You are counterspelling while the spell is being cast, you are not Dispelling while the "bead streaks from the pointing digit".

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But, very few actions are segmented like this. There is no "Pull out material components" phase of a spell...

Wait... so what's the "Prepare spell components to cast a spell" free action used for?

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wait... so what's the "Prepare spell components to cast a spell" free action used for?

As part of the Spell Casting action. This is listed there so that there is no confusion as to whether it is a Move Action separate from the actual Spell Casting action. In other words, Retrieve a Stored Item is listed as a Move Action, so prepare (i.e. pull out material) Spell Components would take a Move Action as well if the rules did not state in some way that they did not.

How do you prepare your verbal components? Presumably, you speak the words.
How do you prepare your somatic components? Presumably, you do them.
How do you prepare your material components? Presumably, you grab them.

Spell Components are integral to Spell Casting, but preparing them is probably considered a free action to prevent confusion, specifically for material components as listed above. In fact, this entire free action entry might only really be referring to material components.

The use of spell components is also listed under Cast a Spell / Spell Components where spell components are explicitly stated as part of casting a spell. You could theoretically Ready an Action to counterspell a spell when an opponent pulls out his material components and still disrupt the spell since they are part of the casting. There is typically no need for this, Readying for when someone starts to cast a spell should usually be sufficient.

It's possible that Prepare Spell Components is also listed as a free action to help DMs minimize the number of free actions in a round.


I suspect there are no real game mechanics reason for making this a free action other than the designers apparently did not want to make it a Not an Action action.

 

[Nail]

I respectfully disagree.

Excellent!

I consider the (game mechanics) resolution of an action to be separate from the action. The action has happened. Now we roll dice to see what happened.

But since you don't know what happened, the standard action is still in progress -- there's no reason a free action can't happen before the outcome is determined. Free actions can happen at any time. So why not before damage is figured?

Either way, I respect your opinion. Seriously. I'm just unconvinced there's a mechanical or story-telling problem with allowing an immediate action to happen between the bits of a standard action, like a orc hitting and damaging with a greataxe. The rules support such a contention, and there are no balance problems with such a stance.

BTW: I'm NOT arguing that an immediate action can happen after the DM has declared the effects of a standard action. You can't cast Delay Death after the orc has done 39 hp of damage to our poor Ftr 2. An immediate action can't revise history.

 

[KarinsDad]

But since you don't know what happened, the standard action is still in progress -- there's no reason a free action can't happen before the outcome is determined. Free actions can happen at any time. So why not before damage is figured?

Actually, free actions do not happen at any time. They happen during other actions. Not during other mechanics resolution.

The difference between "in character" events and "out of character" events. Free actions do not happen out of character.

Either way, I respect your opinion. Seriously. I'm just unconvinced there's a mechanical or story-telling problem with allowing an immediate action to happen between the bits of a standard action, like a orc hitting and damaging with a greataxe. The rules support such a contention, and there are no balance problems with such a stance.

Actually, you have yet to quote a rule that supports such a stance. I do not think there is a balance issue. I just think the rules do not support it.

Course, the rules are kind of quiet on the issue, hence, the reason I could only go to the Ready rules to look for examples.

BTW: I'm NOT arguing that an immediate action can happen after the DM has declared the effects of a standard action. You can't cast Delay Death after the orc has done 39 hp of damage to our poor Ftr 2. An immediate action can't revise history.

What's the difference?

Say, for example, that the DM rolls to hit behind his screen. How do you as a player know that he did not roll the damage dice at the same time. There is even a suggestion in the DMG to roll To Hit and Damage at the same time.

This is all mechanics. If the DM rolls To Hit and Damage and is still adding all of the damage up, but has not yet declared the effect of 39 points of damage, and you pipe up "Delay Death", do you think the DM should not say "Too late. I've already rolled and you take 39 points."?

There are basically 3 things here (IMO):

1) Action Declared
2) Dice rolled
3) Result Declared

I say that a player can interrupt before #2.

You appear to be changing it to:

1) Action Declared
2a) To Hit Dice rolled
2b) To Hit Result Declared
2c) Damage Dice rolled
2d) Damage Result Declared / Massive Damage Result Declared
2e) Massifve Damage Save Dice rolled
3) Result Declared

You are saying that he can interrupt before #2b. Are you also saying that he can interrupt before #2c? You seem to be. How about before #2d? #2e? #3?

Where does it stop?

Can the caster not stop the damage of 2e with Delay Death (as you indicated above), but cast a cast a different Immediate spell to boost Saves before the Saving Throw for Massive Damage of 2e?

If you stop this before #3 (i.e. final results), why? What is so special about the earlier 2a through 2e steps?