Adult: Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge

[Vaxalon]

...not to mention he doesn't have a psychology or psychiatry or biology or even anthropology degree....

David Brin is a visiting scholar at the Center for Study of Evolution of Life (UCLA), and a member of NASA NSCORT for Exobiology, both of which are positions that deal with speculations about what alien life might be like.

Specifically, his article, "Neoteny and Two-Way Sexual Selection in Human Evolution: Paleo Anthropological Speculation" was published in the Journal of Social and Evolutionary Systems, Vol.18(3) pp. 257-276, January 1996.

If there's anyone more qualified to talk about nonhuman intelligent life, I don't know who it might be. Do a little research before you begin to impugn someone's credentials.

 

[KitanaVorr]

Re: [i]Hunh?[/i]

Are you saying that if cats drove cars and had good jobs, they'd have smaller litters? That seems to be what you're saying.

The birth rate of different groups of humans (which all share the same level of neoteny, and also generally have the same number of children per pregnancy) depends on economic factors.

What I'm saying is that the more neoteny a species has, the fewer young it bears in each pregnancy. The number of pregnancies it bears is, indeed, dependent upon availablility of food, etc. but that doesn't affect how many eggs the female releases during ovulation, and how many young are produced per pregnancy.

We're talking about a world where the word "race" means something completely different than it does in our world.

Is the sentence "Orcs, on the average, are less intelligent than men" a racist thought? What if it's true for the world in question.

As for sexism: Huh? Since everything I said was equally applicable to males and females, how is it sexist?

As for elitism: Huh? Since everything I said was equally applicable to all cultural groups, how is it elitist?

1. The article is sexist and elitist I was mostly attacking the article not what you said. Its dangerous to let unqualified people like that that guy write things as if its scientific fact. I did check his biography and he doesn't have a degree in biology/anthropology/psychology/zoology or any of the things that would make him an expert. His degrees are in engineering and physics I believe. Unfortunately people like him are commonly get those positions due to political influence (I work in that business, I know how it works)...don't even get me started on how political the sciences can get...

2. Have you checked how racist D&D races are? If you're big and dark skinned you're evil and dumb. How many good heros/heroines have you seen that aren't white? And don't even get me started on the elf/drow thing. Why are dark skinned elves evil and their paler brethern good? It doesn't make sense for the drow to even be dark skinned since animals that live without light are actually WHITE b/c they don't need pigment.

EDIT:

I didn't mean to start an all out flame war or anything. But I feel very strongly about these things, especially on boards where the majority are men .

 

[Vaxalon]

He's not unqualified, I already mentioned his qualifications.

His PhD is in space physics, which is about as close as you can get to his area of interest, exobiology. If you can find a university that was giving degrees in exobiology back then, I'll offer my humblest apologies.

David Brin has no political connections whatsoever. His positions are a result of a great deal of informal (that is, not done as part of a university) research he has done about possible nonhuman intelligence, as part of his fiction, and the huge amount of work he has done as a member of CONTACT.

I haven't seen anything that says that DnD races are "racist". None of them mention the various varieties of humans at all. African, European, Asian, and American types of humans all share exactly the same stats.

Now, if there were Orcs or Goblins on Earth, you might have a point. There aren't even any green or orange humans!

Now, if you want to read some material from someone with essentially the same ideas about sexual selection, and slightly more scholarly credentials, you could try the works of Desmond Morris. I think you'll find that he has much the same to say about the topic, though with a focus more on humanity than possible nonhuman intelligence.

 

[KitanaVorr]

He's not unqualified, I already mentioned his qualifications.

His PhD is in space physics, which is about as close as you can get to his area of interest, exobiology. If you can find a university that was giving degrees in exobiology back then, I'll offer my humblest apologies.

David Brin has no political connections whatsoever. His positions are a result of a great deal of informal (that is, not done as part of a university) research he has done about possible nonhuman intelligence, as part of his fiction, and the huge amount of work he has done as a member of CONTACT.

I haven't seen anything that says that DnD races are "racist". None of them mention the various varieties of humans at all. African, European, Asian, and American types of humans all share exactly the same stats.

Now, if there were Orcs or Goblins on Earth, you might have a point. There aren't even any green or orange humans!

I don't want to get into the sciences war about his qualifications and the validity of his positions. Suffice it to say that his version of exobiology is purely hypothetical since we have yet to find actual proof of life beyond Earth. I think that the best person to talk about what life would be like would be a biologist.

The racist D&D thing is really the drow versus the other elves. When I first encountered D&D that bothered me so much especially since I knew that scientifically the drow should be white skinned because they lived without light. So arbitrarily making them dark skinned seemed pretty racist to me. Also that they're matriarchial whereas most of the other D&D races are patriarchial (or they always seem to be ruled by a male leader most of the time) You can correct me if you know if any of the other D&D races are matriarchial as well and not evil.

EDIT: oh the politics in the sciences are not government related necessarily but I meant the social politics that happen in the scientific community.

 

[Witchking of Angmar]

I don't want to get into the sciences war about his qualifications and the validity of his positions. Suffice it to say that his version exobiology is purely theoreticial since we have yet to find actual proof of life beyond Earth. I think that the best person to talk about what life would be like would be a biologist.

Yeah, it kind of strikes me as ammusing to hear someone touted as an expert in a scientific field he has no degree in, and is purely theoretical anyway.

The racist D&D thing is really the drow versus the other elves. When I first encountered D&D that bothered me so much especially since I knew that scientifically the drow should be white skinned because they lived without light.

So sue the Norwegians. It's their mythology. Drow were originally based on Norwegian myths about evil, dark-skinned elves that lived underground and were good smiths. Gygax just took that and addapted it to match D&D elves. They are not dark because they're EVIL, they're dark because it's cool, interesting, and menacing. As for science, I couldn't care less. I've always liked inverted villains. As a kid I like Black Adam, Reverse-Flash, Nega-Duck, Faker, and many more. Science could just as easily explain how drow adapted to their environment and their skin pigmentation darkened to allow them to more easily hide in the black depths. Or perhaps some side affect of their adamantite fetish. It doesn't matter. They're dark and they're cool villains. If that bothers you, fine, but I like them that way. I really couldn't care less for the "science" of why they are the way they are, and I'm sure that when they're battling for their lives most players won't care either.

So arbitrarily making them dark skinned seemed pretty racist to me.

Dark/black has long been the color associated with evil, and racism has nothing to do with it.

You can correct me if you know of any of the other D&D races are matriarchial as well and not evil.

Some could say that halfling society has a matriarchal slant, since their primary deity is female. Sure, drow are matriarchal and evil, but have you ever considered how many evil societies are patriarchal? What have you got to gripe about? As far as we know, males dominate all of these evil species (since none of them are described as matriarchal in the Monster Manual): orcs, goblins, gnolls, ogres, trolls, giants, bugbears, hobgoblins, kobolds, kuo-toa, sahuagin, efreeti, salamanders, troglodytes, and yuan-ti. Please save me from your concerns over sexism in regards to drow being evil and matricarchal.

 

[LostSoul]

Re: Re: [i]Hunh?[/i]

1. The article is sexist and elitist I was mostly attacking the article not what you said.

I just finished the article and I didn't find it sexist or elitist. I'm not saying that it isn't, just that I was unable to see it. Can you expand on what parts of that article you found sexist/elitist?

 

[kolvar]

mhm, dark/ black is culturally associated with evil? Not in all cultures. (although the european/ amarican culture seems to have still a problem with that --> it has something to do with racism).
As far as degrees go, I can only say, that I now as many people, who are good at something without a degree as are people who are bad at the same thing with one. Degrees mean only, that you are able to learn and are good at doing some tests. (I should know, because I have a degree in history and german and am slightly dislexic and have realy no idea about most of history).

The basic problem here seems to be, that something, that is applyed to a whole race and both genders can not be sexist or racist, as Vaxalon pointed out. If I, as a man, say, that men and women are bastards (which is mostly true, if you consider the legal part), one could point out, that I am sexist, because I wrote "men" first and used "bastard" (which is associated with male subjects of a race), but not for calling women so.

Actually, this discussion is realy fun (g).

 

[Sorn]

Welcome to the thread KitanaVorr.

It's certainly not a boys-only club here, and it is nice to see some lively discussion here.

Another set of Lady's eyes are certainly welcome, and any insight you want to share is certainly appreciated.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Long time, no see...

Hi, all

Don't know if anyone besides kolvar remembers me.

Hi korvar!

Well, anyway, how is guide coming up, editing going on, and stuff like that?

 

[Squirrel Nutkin]

When I first encountered D&D that bothered me so much especially since I knew that scientifically the drow should be white skinned because they lived without light. So arbitrarily making them dark skinned seemed pretty racist to me.

If it makes you feel any better, not all D&D "Dark Elves" are black-skinned. Classic D&D 's Mystara setting has no Drow in it, but the subterranean Shadow Elves were all white skinned just like you'd expect. Also, they were a bit more three-dimensional in the sense that while they were enemies of the surface elves, they weren't an evil race.

On the other hand, in Games Workshop's Warhammer setting, the Dark Elves are a surface-dwelling race that is thoroughly evil, but their skin is as white as alabaster. And interestingly enough, the Dark Elves are ruled by the male Witch-King and his mother/lover (!), while the High Elves have an immortal "Everqueen" instead.