Adventure: Lord Byron’s Economic Woes (DM: Tenchuu, Judge: H.M.Gimlord)

[johnmeier1]

Amazing, Kane! Wil shouts out across the battlefield before taking measure of the remaining spear-wielding lizardman and calling out. Looks like the battle isn't going the way you planned! Take heart great barbarian and continue the assault. The bard encourages his comrade.

[sblock=OOC] Immediate Reaction: Kane gains 3 temporary hp from Bardic Virtue.
Minor: Hunter's Quarry on Skirmisher 1
Standard: Cutting Words 1d20+5=25 (vs Will) for 1d8+5+1d6=19 (psychic damage) and pull to D7 (if he is still alive)
Minor: Majestic Word heals Kane for healing surge + 5 and slide him 1 to E8
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[ryryguy]

[sblock=OOC]
Did Kane defeat 2 of the three remaining foes? if not could I get a repost of the map and enemy positions?
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[sblock=remaining foes]He did indeed defeat the scorpion and a skirmisher!

Left still remaining are the slinger at J5 (-17 hp, with a hawk circling him) and the skirmisher at D8 (-14 hp). Actually, hang on a second... [/sblock]

[sblock=Wil]Your cutting words attack looks like a natural 20! If so you'd do max damage of 19!

Also, I believe that Kane ended his whirling about in D8, so I don't think you want to pull the skirmisher there. [/sblock]

 

[Tenchuu]

[sblock=judge,ryryguy]
Would using a sling really trigger an OA? I only skimmed the posts, because I don't have time right now to update, but I don't think anyone moved next to the slinger. Does the firebird itself count as an adjacent enemy that would trigger the OA when he moves, fires ranged, etc?

Also, what book can I find FH power in? I don't see it when I create a druid in character builder, but I haven't updated in while. I thought if I read the original power description, I would understand this better.
[/sblock][sblock=renau1g]
Wow. Way to slay those kobolds!
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[renau1g]

[sblock=Fire Hawk]
It's from Primal Powwr

Fire Hawk

A hawk of flame swoops on your foe, burning it. The hawk hovers for a moment, ready to swoop in for another attack shouldthat foe’s defenses falter.

At-Will Fire, Implement, Primal
Standard Action Ranged 10

Target: One creature

Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex

Hit: 1d8 + Wisdom modifier fire damage. Until the start of your next turn, you can use the Fire Hawk Attack against the target.
Level 21: 2d8 + Wisdom modifier fire damage.
Fire Hawk Attack

A hawk of flame swoops on your foe, burning it. The hawk hovers for a moment, ready to swoop in for another attack should that foe’s defenses falter.

At-Will Fire, Implement, Primal
Opportunity Action Ranged 10

Trigger: The target takes any action that can provoke opportunity attacks

Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex

Hit: 1d8 + Wisdom modifier fire damage.

Requirement: The power Fire Hawk must be activated for you to use this power.

First published in Primal Power.
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[ryryguy]

[sblock=Fire Hawk]It's from primal power, and it's in the compendium now. I believe it's been a month since primal power came out so it should be "street legal". I pretty much copied the exact text of the power onto my sheet.

I agree, it could use clarification, but I think the fact that it triggers if the target does something that "can provoke an attack of opportunity" (not "does provoke" or "provokes") means there doesn't have to be an adjacent ally. Also, the power is just really weak if an adjacent ally is required.

If not, it's definitely a good strong power, but not too good, I think. Consider: it doesn't apply any conditions. The opportunity attack requires another successful hit roll (it doesn't auto-damage), and it doesn't apply any conditions, either. The amount of damage potential is very good for a controller, but not crazy good, and again, it's not certain the druid will actually get to make the second attack or hit with it.

A final limitation is that the druid can't take the opportunity attack if he's in beast form, since the opportunity attack is listed as its own power ("Fire Hawk Attack") and doesn't have the beast form keyword. (There seems to be some debate about a follow-on secondary attack, like that granted by Grasping Tide, but since Fire Hawk makes it a separate power it seems pretty clear cut to me.)

Anyway, I did make a post on the WotC rules forum asking these very questions. Opinions are split but more seem to lean to the "don't need an adjacent ally" theory. Here it is for whatever it's worth: Rules Q&A[/sblock]

 

[H.M.Gimlord]

[sblock=ryryguy, Tenchuu]The word "can" here refers to something that would normally, legally, provoke an OA. The idea here is to clarify that usually OAs only allow basic melee actions, while FH is not a basic melee action. This is all there is to it. Simply slinging a bullet doesn't provoke an OA if the target is not adjacent, nor does moving from a non-adjacent spot. Only if an OA could be provoked by the action is FH usable.

ryryguy: I would disagree with the 'non-adjacent enemy' theory simply because a person moving or using a ranged attack from a non-adjacent square CAN'T provoke an OA.

It might, however be possible that if the Slinger performed an action that could have provoked an OA from someone ELSE (adjacent to Hargunna or not), regardless of whether or not the OA was actually engaged, then your FH power could be used.[/sblock]

 

[ryryguy]

[sblock=ruling]Well, I disagree... I don't think it makes sense to say that "can" "...is to clarify that usually OAs only allow basic melee actions, while FH is not a basic melee action." "Fire Hawk Attack" is its own power, used as an opportunity action, with its own trigger condition. If and when it does trigger, you're not actually making a standard opportunity attack, although the language in its trigger might make it seem that way. "Fire Hawk Attack" does not say "this power can be used as a basic melee attack", or "this power can be used to make a basic opportunity attack", or the like.

Regarding this: "It might, however be possible that if the Slinger performed an action that could have provoked an OA from someone ELSE (adjacent to Hargunna or not), regardless of whether or not the OA was actually engaged, then your FH power could be used." If that is not true, and the druid must be adjacent, then I'd say the power is 100% worthless. The druid can be in beast form allowing him to make an equivalent attack with Savage Rend or Grasping Claws (a better attack, in fact, since those have condition riders).

If that is true, along with the first part of the ruling, then I'd say the power is 50% worthless. It would still have some limited utility to support allies, but usually monsters don't have a hard time avoiding OA's by shifting away first.

Either way, I think I'm going to want to swap out the power for something else. I guess I can try using it under this ruling until level 2 and see if it's really as bad as I think, and retrain it then if so.[/sblock]

 

[H.M.Gimlord]

[sblock=ryryguy]

... if the Slinger performed an action that could have provoked an OA from someone ELSE (adjacent to Hargunna or not), regardless of whether or not the OA was actually engaged, then your FH power could be used." If that is not true, and the druid must be adjacent, then I'd say the power is 100% worthless.

I agree. In fact, the more I read this, I think this is exactly what the power was designed to do. The idea is that if the target takes an action that would provoke an OA from you, an ally, heck even another enemy, you can add FH to the fray regardless of whether or not someone else takes the OA.

The druid can be in beast form allowing him to make an equivalent attack with Savage Rend or Grasping Claws (a better attack, in fact, since those have condition riders).

True, but...

1. SR and GC both require your character to be adjacent to the target if they are to be used in an OA.
2. If your character is not in bestial form, SR and GC cannot be used in an OA because changing to bestial form requires a minor action, and these powers can only be used in bestial form.

If that is true, along with the first part of the ruling, then I'd say the power is 50% worthless.

Gotta disagree with you there. Though the shifting ability of the kobolds in this adventure make reduce its power, FH is extremely powerful. I don' t know of any other power that lets you get an OA on a creature that is as far as 10 squares away.

As for provoking OAs on simple moves and ranged attacks out in the open with no adjacent creatures, I'd say this makes the power a little too potent.

I guess I can try using it under this ruling until level 2 and see if it's really as bad as I think, and retrain it then if so.

Thanks. I don't like it when I make a ruling that favors the DM, but I'm just calling this one how I see it. If you want, we can bring this up on the discussion thread and pound out an official ruling. I'm game, but for now, we'll do it this way.[/sblock]

 

[ryryguy]

[sblock=H.M.Gimlord]

1. SR and GC both require your character to be adjacent to the target if they are to be used in an OA.
2. If your character is not in bestial form, SR and GC cannot be used in an OA because changing to bestial form requires a minor action, and these powers can only be used in bestial form.

My point about SR/GC was only relevant if you're going with the most restrictive interpretation, that the druid must be adjacent to trigger Fire Hawk Attack. In that case, it's worth pointing out that if the adjacent druid uses Fire Hawk Attack, that would draw an OA from the target, since it's a ranged attack! So yeah, even more than 100% worthless!

But going with the less restrictive, any ally is adjacent interpretation...

Gotta disagree with you there. Though the shifting ability of the kobolds in this adventure make reduce its power, FH is extremely powerful. I don' t know of any other power that lets you get an OA on a creature that is as far as 10 squares away..

We'll see. Everyone can shift one square. And if they're surrounded, or have restricted actions (i.e., dazed), it's just piling on... so maybe it will be a decent finisher, I suppose.

Certain skirmishers with bonuses to AC against OAs might provoke with movement more casually... but of course they'll consequently be harder to hit.

But the fundamental problem is that the druid will have to anticipate the monster's action in advance, choosing what amounts to a weak single target power on the gamble that the enemy will do something stupid. The druid can't switch to beast form and still use the opportunity attack, so his own actions are further restricted.. It's not even really providing any control beyond what the adjacent ally is doing already. We'll see, but I expect that other powers will almost always be a better option. (If not other powers that Hergunna actually has, other powers she might have chosen instead of Fire Hawk, i.e. Storm Spike, Fire Seed, or even Thorn Whip.)

This also opens up some cans of worms. Such as, if the adjacent ally is dazed or otherwise unable to make OAs, does Fire Hawk Attack still trigger?

Thanks. I don't like it when I make a ruling that favors the DM, but I'm just calling this one how I see it. If you want, we can bring this up on the discussion thread and pound out an official ruling. I'm game, but for now, we'll do it this way.

Yeah, I think it's probably a good idea to bring it up for wider discussion.

Also, I wrote to WotC customer service. The response is... extremely unenlightening. To be honest, I can't even tell which side he's coming down on (or if he even is). But for the record, here it is:
[sblock=Cust Serv]Q: Regarding the Druid at-will power Fire Hawk, from Primal Power. The follow-on "Fire Hawk Attack" is an opportunity action with the trigger, "The target takes any action that can provoke opportunity attacks." This is unclear in cases where the action would provoke an opportunity attack only if an enemy is adjacent, e.g., moving or making a ranged or area attack.

So, if the target moves or makes a ranged or area attack, and the druid is not adjacent to the target, and no ally of the druid is adjacent to the target, does it trigger the Fire Hawk Attack?

A: I understand your confusion the wording on that can be some what tricky. The action the opponent takes has to actively provoke and attack of opportunity, I realize the word "can" muddles the situation, but instead try thinking of it as the opponent takes an action that leaves them actively vulnerable..I hope this clears things up feel free to forward on any other questions to us.
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Wizards of the Coast[/sblock]
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[H.M.Gimlord]

[sblock=ryryguy]Normally, I would ask for us to take this discussion to the discussion thread at this time, but seeing as Tenchuu is out and I'm actually curious as to how this debate will end (I have a TT druid who might be considering this power as well), there's no harm in talking for a little while.

My point about SR/GC was only relevant if you're going with the most restrictive interpretation,

Ah. I see.

But going with the less restrictive, any ally is adjacent interpretation...

...the fundamental problem is that the druid will have to anticipate the monster's action in advance, choosing what amounts to a weak single target power on the gamble that the enemy will do something stupid.

Yeah. This strikes me as odd too. It forces you to be extremely choiceful of your targets and the situations in which you use them.

Not so sure it's as weak as you think. You've already done 1d8+X damage from the initial attack. Another 1d8+X damage is 2d8+2X in one round from a distance (greater than some encounter powers).

The druid can't switch to beast form and still use the opportunity attack, so his own actions are further restricted.. It's not even really providing any control beyond what the adjacent ally is doing already. We'll see, but I expect that other powers will almost always be a better option. (If not other powers that Hergunna actually has, other powers she might have chosen instead of Fire Hawk, i.e. Storm Spike, Fire Seed, or even Thorn Whip.)

Personally, I think that the beast form thing is a limiting power in and of itself. I think WotC really need to rework the mechanics of this before it becomes truly usable.

This also opens up some cans of worms. Such as, if the adjacent ally is dazed or otherwise unable to make OAs, does Fire Hawk Attack still trigger?

Good point. I would argue that it still does, because the proximity is what makes OAs possible (though from your post, below, WotC seems to disagree), but I understand the weakness of this argument.

Yeah, I think it's probably a good idea to bring it up for wider discussion.

Done. See the discussion thread. Let's go ahead and play as ruled for this adventure at least.

A: I understand your confusion the wording on that can be some what tricky. The action the opponent takes has to actively provoke and attack of opportunity, I realize the word "can" muddles the situation, but instead try thinking of it as the opponent takes an action that leaves them actively vulnerable..I hope this clears things up feel free to forward on any other questions to us.
We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

Sounds to me like they're supporting the 50% option.[/sblock]